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True2Ourselves Forums   > Community Topics > General Discussions  > Loss of Salvation?

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  #1  
Old 08-30-2009, 11:52 AM
irondumpty
 
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Default Loss of Salvation?

Romans 11:16-22: "16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. "

Hua? Wow! This seems contradictary to much of what I hear in churches. Should we add some non-inspired inturpretation in order to twist it to our understanding? Please enlighten me on this.
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  #2  
Old 08-30-2009, 01:15 PM
preachergirl
 
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Default Re: Loss of Salvation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by irondumpty View Post
Romans 11:16-22: "16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. "

Hua? Wow! This seems contradictary to much of what I hear in churches. Should we add some non-inspired inturpretation in order to twist it to our understanding? Please enlighten me on this.

An idea: The Law was their stumblingblock...they fell by the law...We are in Grace; shall we continue therin, or like them, fall or be cut off, by the very grace which allows us to stand and have true life?

Ironically I was thinking along these likes this early AM....I was thinking...God does Not "Need" us....but by his Love He "Chooses" to involve us in his Creation and his works. So then by this, who among us can really have pride over another, when it's only by God's Grace that he "chooses" to involve any one of us? Your word there fits right in here...Let us then stand in his Grace, which he imparted to us to be able to stand in, and never have the pride to think that God really "needs" us to lead "His own" people, but rather stand in the humility that recognizes that he has chosen to allow us to share in his works.
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  #3  
Old 08-30-2009, 03:00 PM
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Default Re: Loss of Salvation?

This is the kind of thing I think all of us here on this forum should work to resolve. It is scriptural but not an easy thing to swallow. In truth there is much about God, beyond the "good shepherd" that is really for the mature. Most are not really ready to meet God. He is a very zealous person.
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Old 08-30-2009, 03:57 PM
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Default Re: Loss of Salvation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by irondumpty View Post
Romans 11:16-22: "16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. "

Hua? Wow! This seems contradictary to much of what I hear in churches. Should we add some non-inspired inturpretation in order to twist it to our understanding? Please enlighten me on this.
If our minds are not renewed we cannot know the good and acceptable and perfect will of God, The important thing is whether we love the Lord or not, if we do we will keep his commandments
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  #5  
Old 08-30-2009, 05:47 PM
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Default Re: Loss of Salvation?

When you read the Bible verses that are quoted to support the "Once Saved Always Saved" theory closely,in most cases you will find qualifying words making it clear that continuing faith or obediance to Jesus is necessary to insure salvation.Even in the verse that is quoted most frequently to make people believe that becoming a Christian can be accomplished with a 10 word prayer, you will note that belief in the divinity of Jesus and therefore total acceptance of all of His teachings is an absolute requirement.

JOHN 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever BELIEVES in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

And believing can not stop!

Matthew 24:13
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
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The Christian faith has not been designed to create success or find pleasure in or even tolerate this world but rather to OVERCOME it!
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  #6  
Old 08-30-2009, 08:08 PM
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Default Re: Loss of Salvation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by christkid777 View Post
In truth there is much about God, beyond the "good shepherd" that is really for the mature. Most are not really ready to meet God.
I was thinking the very same thing CK.
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  #7  
Old 08-30-2009, 08:19 PM
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Default Re: Loss of Salvation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by irondumpty View Post
Romans 11:16-22: "16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. "

Hua? Wow! This seems contradictary to much of what I hear in churches. Should we add some non-inspired inturpretation in order to twist it to our understanding? Please enlighten me on this.
It is good that you have brough this out for discussion. Since most houses of worship that you have attended teach contrary to this, then obviously there are others out there that are experiencing the same thing. I will be interested to hear from those who have had similar experiences. I myself love and teach the lovely theology that streams from these verses, so will be interested to hear why people would reject them (or maybe more to the point, ignore them).
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  #8  
Old 08-31-2009, 02:35 PM
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Default Re: Loss of Salvation?

One of the things that has consumed most modern Christian leaders is the need to save souls. Or I should say to witness to souls. So much so that many keep a tally of people they have witnessed to. Like notches on the handle of a gunfighters weapon. They have this very unscripturael idea of "bringing people to Christ" which to many means getting them into church. The perceived need to witness to people with the mouth and get a confession from them them has been at the expense of the more biblical mandate of discipleship. Christ raises sons. He is not a spiritual fornicator who spews out His seed and leaves without giving a second thought to what He may have created. Many modern Christians are. They don't stick around to raise their "child". They don't follow up, they don"t check in. They go away to boast to their friends about their exploits. It is this lack of accountability that accounts for the misrepresentation of God's interest. And the selective acceptance or dismissal of His Word. People leave off the parts of the Word that will keep people out of church. They don't want to offend their flocks. The truth of the matter is that God is not in a panic to get people into church. For Him the frustration of watching the unsecured soul slide back into darkness is painful. God is choosing and raising sons and daughters. These are men and women who will ultimately rule the universe. They are not haphazard, fly by night, one day in, the next day out kind of Christians. Once they hear the Word of God they are hooked for life. There is no other life for them. They don't doubt their choice and they don't regret their sacrifices and loses. They will either live or die on the Word of God. It is these people God is looking for. He would rather work with "disciplers" not just witnesses. A discipler is a more mature and faithful man or woman who has counted the cost of raising a soul and has decided to pay the price in personal sacrifice. It is not surprising to me that many hard verses like the one in Romans seldom make it into the Sunday sermon.
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  #9  
Old 08-31-2009, 05:47 PM
quietude
 
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Default Re: Loss of Salvation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by christkid777 View Post
In truth there is much about God, beyond the "good shepherd" that is really for the mature. Most are not really ready to meet God. He is a very zealous person.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Linsinbigler View Post
I was thinking the very same thing CK.
As was I.

I believe in the law of restoration—you are a restored in the resurrection to what you became in life. If we are "wet noodle" Christians in life, we'll receive a "wet noodle" reward in the resurrection.
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  #10  
Old 08-31-2009, 07:08 PM
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Default Re: Loss of Salvation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by christkid777 View Post
One of the things that has consumed most modern Christian leaders is the need to save souls. Or I should say to witness to souls. So much so that many keep a tally of people they have witnessed to. Like notches on the handle of a gunfighters weapon. They have this very unscripturael idea of "bringing people to Christ" which to many means getting them into church. The perceived need to witness to people with the mouth and get a confession from them them has been at the expense of the more biblical mandate of discipleship. Christ raises sons. He is not a spiritual fornicator who spews out His seed and leaves without giving a second thought to what He may have created. Many modern Christians are. They don't stick around to raise their "child". They don't follow up, they don"t check in. They go away to boast to their friends about their exploits. It is this lack of accountability that accounts for the misrepresentation of God's interest. And the selective acceptance or dismissal of His Word. People leave off the parts of the Word that will keep people out of church. They don't want to offend their flocks. The truth of the matter is that God is not in a panic to get people into church. For Him the frustration of watching the unsecured soul slide back into darkness is painful. God is choosing and raising sons and daughters. These are men and women who will ultimately rule the universe. They are not haphazard, fly by night, one day in, the next day out kind of Christians. Once they hear the Word of God they are hooked for life. There is no other life for them. They don't doubt their choice and they don't regret their sacrifices and loses. They will either live or die on the Word of God. It is these people God is looking for. He would rather work with "disciplers" not just witnesses. A discipler is a more mature and faithful man or woman who has counted the cost of raising a soul and has decided to pay the price in personal sacrifice. It is not surprising to me that many hard verses like the one in Romans seldom make it into the Sunday sermon.
CK, you said alot here and I don't think I can answer point by point, but only to say that, yes, the "I saved 10 souls today" thing is truly sad, as is shallow "witnessing" and so on. How many invite or have accepted invitations to one another's houses or events. The only thing, of course, that I disagree with you is that your implication that discipleship is not "church, and that church is not kingdom, but the rest I can agree with you on. "Church" is called "the family of God"--an alternate translation is "household of God," either is correct, the one being "modern" the other "middle." If God wants sons and daughters, he wants members of his household, his family. To say that God wants sons and daughters but does not want them in His household just doesn't fit.
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