Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader

Here is a nice video clip of the movie made about Saint Bernadette:

YouTube - Song of Bernadette


From:

Hey Terry, thanks for the post. Any way we might re-capture the direction of the post? We sort of got off track.

[winsome]

Healing miracles are commonplace in Catholic Charismatic Renewal.

See http://www.coretlumenchristi.org/mis...acle_Rally.pdf for a poster for this years Catholic Miracle Rally in London, run by Damine Stayle of the Cor et Lumen Christi Community.

Originally Posted by winsome

Healing miracles are commonplace in Catholic Charismatic Renewal.

See http://www.coretlumenchristi.org/mis...acle_Rally.pdf for a poster for this years Catholic Miracle Rally in London, run by Damine Stayle of the Cor et Lumen Christi Community.

Good morning Steve, or to you...good evening! I fully agree with both you and Terry that miracles occur, thank God! My point in the OP was to point out that if Jesus promised each of us personally that whatsover we asked the Father in His name, that would He do that the Father might be glorified in the Son, and if Jesus told each of us about the power of agreement in prayer, and taught us that if we have faith as a mustard seed, we can say to this mountain "be thou moved and cast into the sea, it will obey us," then what is the reason for the discrepancy between million praying for miracles or even every day needs and the actual results most receive.

I firmly do not believe that God over-promised and under-delivered, so that leaves the issue with us, not Him. My question is simply to identify what people feel is the reason for this, that is all.

Sure is nice to see you back posting...

Originally Posted by BruceG

....My point in the OP was to point out that if Jesus promised each of us personally that whatsover we asked the Father in His name, that would He do that the Father might be glorified in the Son, and if Jesus told each of us about the power of agreement in prayer, and taught us that if we have faith as a mustard seed, we can say to this mountain "be thou moved and cast into the sea, it will obey us," then what is the reason for the discrepancy between million praying for miracles or even every day needs and the actual results most receive.....

Ask in his name to move a mountain. It will not happen. God's will will be done. Just because people pray for miracles does not mean those miracles are Gods will.

"Thy will be done, not mine"

Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader

Ask in his name to move a mountain. It will not happen. God's will will be done. Just because people pray for miracles does not mean those miracles are Gods will.

"Thy will be done, not mine"

Terry, I understand what you are saying and basically agree. And yet... it is still unclear why God would make a statement like this.

Do you think that there might be a level of intimate walking and abiding whereby you so know God's will that when you prayed for a miracle, you would receive it because you first knew without a doubt it was God's will? Your thoughts?

[Amadeus]

Originally Posted by BruceG

Terry, I understand what you are saying and basically agree. And yet... it is still unclear why God would make a statement like this.

Do you think that there might be a level of intimate walking and abiding whereby you so know God's will that when you prayed for a miracle, you would receive it because you first knew without a doubt it was God's will? Your thoughts?

Brother Bruce, this I believe is where Jesus was when He was walking in the natural land of Israel in His own flesh. He did not heal every sick person in the land. He did not turn every evil doer to Him. But... He always knew when to touch or speak to a person for that person's healing. You never read about Him trying to heal someone and failing because it did not happen.

If you check out Acts 3 you will see a man lame from his mother's womb who was carried to the gate daily to beg alms. He was over 40 years old and surely had been at the gate many times when Jesus had passed by there. He was not healed until after the resurrection and then it was via Peter and John that his healing came. What happened was in accord with God's time, which was in His will.

Originally Posted by Amadeus

Brother Bruce, this I believe is where Jesus was when He was walking in the natural land of Israel in His own flesh. He did not heal every sick person in the land. He did not turn every evil doer to Him. But... He always knew when to touch or speak to a person for that person's healing. You never read about Him trying to heal someone and failing because it did not happen.

If you check out Acts 3 you will see a man lame from his mother's womb who was carried to the gate daily to beg alms. He was over 40 years old and surely had been at the gate many times when Jesus had passed by there. He was not healed until after the resurrection and then it was via Peter and John that his healing came. What happened was in accord with God's time, which was in His will.

I understand your point. Timing is a factor. But was it simply God's time for this man to be healed, or had his faith "ripened" and finally a harvest of results was ready?

If it was simply God's time, was this man not just a robot doing God's bidding? Was there nothing in the man's possession that was the trigger for this miracle?

The reason I asked, is, if it is all just a play being played out before us and we have nothing truly to do with the results, we are not participants anymore but just the audience. The fact is, the promise has clearly been stated by Jesus as to getting answers to prayer. We are told by James that when we pray to not doubt in our heart but to expect the answer without wavering. That is a fact...undeniable.
Now, if what is being proposed is totally true, would not the promise really be misleading at best and a lie at worst? If we are dependant upon it being God's will, then why pray at all, and how can one believe if deep inside, they know God's will will be done regardless, and if His will is not to grant the answer, then how can one ever pray believing, nothing doubting as we are commanded to do?

If God's will is done regardless, then nothing can change it, for God changes not, correct? Yet, the Samaritan woman who begged Jesus to heal her duaghter was denied by the Lord several times, and He finally had to put her in her place and compare the Samaritan race to dogs, and He clearly stated to her that he was sent only to the chidren of Israel.

And yet, this audacious woman who simply believed and would not take no for an answer persisted. "Yea, Lord, she wisely said, but even the dogs get to eat the crumbs that fall from the table. And God changed His mind.

Not only that, but we now get an insight into the mind of Jesus Himself. He marvels at her faith, her persistance, her humility that still knew innately that Jesus loved her despite her heritage and linneage that was outside of the purpose of God and had ample power that even a crumb of it was sufficient to heal her vexed daughter. He marvelled and said, "Lo, I have not found fath like this in all Israel." He then dismissed the amazingly faith filled woman and told her the daughter was healed.

Now, if it is all "just whether or not it is God's will, or just God's timing, the woman was way out of bounds and truthfully in rebellion to the will of God. The Son of God has said "NO"....to her face. But she refused to accept it. She presisted. She said to her mountain "Be thou removed and cast into the sea" and it obeyed her.

Could it be we have misunderstood the call for faith and the persistance God is looking for in us? Have we simply become "Christian fatalists", accepting whatever the Universe throws our way and attempting to pass off our passivity as trust? It certainly is something to ponder on....

[Amadeus]

Hello Bruce,

Originally Posted by BruceG

I understand your point. Timing is a factor. But was it simply God's time for this man to be healed, or had his faith "ripened" and finally a harvest of results was ready?

If it was simply God's time, was this man not just a robot doing God's bidding? Was there nothing in the man's possession that was the trigger for this miracle?

Don't underestimate God! Is it not possible for Him to give us the choice on something, and still know ahead of time what we would choose. This does not make us robots. It simply makes Him God with a foreknowledge of what each of us will do. We still do what we want.

The reason I asked, is, if it is all just a play being played out before us and we have nothing truly to do with the results, we are not participants anymore but just the audience. The fact is, the promise has clearly been stated by Jesus as to getting answers to prayer. We are told by James that when we pray to not doubt in our heart but to expect the answer without wavering. That is a fact...undeniable.

We are not to doubt, but to trust in Him. Most of us would pray for anyone who asked us to pray for them, but in most cases we would not know in advance God's answer to our prayers. Jesus usually did, but did He know in Gethsemene before praying for relief from the cup that was His to drink that His Father was not going to remove it from Him? If He did, then why did He bother to pray the same prayer three times? Was He having a problem with unbelief or simply a lack of complete knowledge?

Now, if what is being proposed is totally true, would not the promise really be misleading at best and a lie at worst? If we are dependant upon it being God's will, then why pray at all, and how can one believe if deep inside, they know God's will will be done regardless, and if His will is not to grant the answer, then how can one ever pray believing, nothing doubting as we are commanded to do?

Why pray at all? Why love God at all? Why obey God at all? Why seek His will at all?

When we become one with Him we will not pray when we know that the person to prayed for is already rejected by God as was Saul. We will communicate with God and He will tell us, do not pray for that person because I have already rejected him.

Or.. yes, pray for him, because your prayer will allow me[God] to tenderize his heart so that he can spiritually hear and see what is being done. Tenderizing a person's heart is not forcing the person to act, but it is putting the person in a more knowledgable position so as to know just what he is accepting or rejecting.

If God's will is done regardless, then nothing can change it, for God changes not, correct? Yet, the Samaritan woman who begged Jesus to heal her duaghter was denied by the Lord several times, and He finally had to put her in her place and compare the Samaritan race to dogs, and He clearly stated to her that he was sent only to the chidren of Israel.

It is God's will that everyone be saved and come to be with Him always, but this will not happen, and God knows that it will not. He wants us to love Him and to be with Him always, but He wants us to do it when we have a real alternative choice that He has provided.

God changes not, but all of His Word was previously spoken, which includes both the blessings and the cursings. If we receive the cursings instead of the blessings, or if we fall into the pit rather than proceeding along the brightly lit pathway of Jesus, God did not change, we simply chose our own pathway (which He provided) instead of the One He wanted us to choose.

And yet, this audacious woman who simply believed and would not take no for an answer persisted. "Yea, Lord, she wisely said, but even the dogs get to eat the crumbs that fall from the table. And God changed His mind.

Not only that, but we now get an insight into the mind of Jesus Himself. He marvels at her faith, her persistance, her humility that still knew innately that Jesus loved her despite her heritage and linneage that was outside of the purpose of God and had ample power that even a crumb of it was sufficient to heal her vexed daughter. He marvelled and said, "Lo, I have not found fath like this in all Israel." He then dismissed the amazingly faith filled woman and told her the daughter was healed.

So where does faith come from? The scripture says it comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. God has given us all of the answers that are needed, but they are not all written in our minds or in our hearts when are first drawn to Him. We need to love Him and His Truth and seek Him and His Truth. He will not fail to give what we need when we need it if we are asking from our hearts.

Sometimes people think they know what they need, but they are sometimes wrong in what they consider needs. God knows better than we do exactly what we need and what we not need.

The Caananitish woman had a need and Jesus recognized that it was a "need". She received her need in spite of not being a natural Israelite.

Now, if it is all "just whether or not it is God's will, or just God's timing, the woman was way out of bounds and truthfully in rebellion to the will of God. The Son of God has said "NO"....to her face. But she refused to accept it. She presisted. She said to her mountain "Be thou removed and cast into the sea" and it obeyed her.

Her people as the Moabites had been rejected by God, but like Ruth, the Moabitess, she cared enough that the Door was opened for her by one of God's promises. Spiritually, both Ruth and the Canaanitish woman were Israelites in spite of their natural genealogies.

"Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do." I Tim 1:4

Could it be we have misunderstood the call for faith and the persistance God is looking for in us? Have we simply become "Christian fatalists", accepting whatever the Universe throws our way and attempting to pass off our passivity as trust? It certainly is something to ponder on....

Be careful what you are eating and drinking!

"And seek not ye what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink, neither be ye of doubtful mind." Luke 12:29

It is not wrong to consider, but be always full of all of what He has provided in order to stand steadfast.

"And seek not ye what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink, neither be ye of doubtful mind." Acts 7:55

John,

Originally Posted by Amadeus

Hello Bruce,



Don't underestimate God! Is it not possible for Him to give us the choice on something, and still know ahead of time what we would choose. This does not make us robots. It simply makes Him God with a foreknowledge of what each of us will do. We still do what we want.



We are not to doubt, but to trust in Him. Most of us would pray for anyone who asked us to pray for them, but in most cases we would not know in advance God's answer to our prayers. Jesus usually did, but did He know in Gethsemene before praying for relief from the cup that was His to drink that His Father was not going to remove it from Him? If He did, then why did He bother to pray the same prayer three times? Was He having a problem with unbelief or simply a lack of complete knowledge?




Why pray at all? Why love God at all? Why obey God at all? Why seek His will at all?

When we become one with Him we will not pray when we know that the person to prayed for is already rejected by God as was Saul. We will communicate with God and He will tell us, do not pray for that person because I have already rejected him.

Or.. yes, pray for him, because your prayer will allow me[God] to tenderize his heart so that he can spiritually hear and see what is being done. Tenderizing a person's heart is not forcing the person to act, but it is putting the person in a more knowledgable position so as to know just what he is accepting or rejecting.



It is God's will that everyone be saved and come to be with Him always, but this will not happen, and God knows that it will not. He wants us to love Him and to be with Him always, but He wants us to do it when we have a real alternative choice that He has provided.

God changes not, but all of His Word was previously spoken, which includes both the blessings and the cursings. If we receive the cursings instead of the blessings, or if we fall into the pit rather than proceeding along the brightly lit pathway of Jesus, God did not change, we simply chose our own pathway (which He provided) instead of the One He wanted us to choose.


So where does faith come from? The scripture says it comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. God has given us all of the answers that are needed, but they are not all written in our minds or in our hearts when are first drawn to Him. We need to love Him and His Truth and seek Him and His Truth. He will not fail to give what we need when we need it if we are asking from our hearts.

Sometimes people think they know what they need, but they are sometimes wrong in what they consider needs. God knows better than we do exactly what we need and what we not need.

The Caananitish woman had a need and Jesus recognized that it was a "need". She received her need in spite of not being a natural Israelite.



Her people as the Moabites had been rejected by God, but like Ruth, the Moabitess, she cared enough that the Door was opened for her by one of God's promises. Spiritually, both Ruth and the Canaanitish woman were Israelites in spite of their natural genealogies.

"Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do." I Tim 1:4



Be careful what you are eating and drinking!

"And seek not ye what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink, neither be ye of doubtful mind." Luke 12:29

It is not wrong to consider, but be always full of all of what He has provided in order to stand steadfast.

"And seek not ye what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink, neither be ye of doubtful mind." Acts 7:55

John,

I understand but in truth, if that is the case, God really does not answer many prayers with yes, does He? Getting answers to believing prayer is one of the promises clearly given by God to us, is it not? He said that these things were written that His joy might be in us our our joy might be full, that whatsoever we ask for when we pray, we are to believe we receive and we shall have, right?

I understand your points as to trust, but do you understand what I am saying here? How can we ask for something and not doubt in our hearts, if chances are the answer is no? What is the explanation for the discrepancy between multitudes of miracles in the book of Acts and a few patry ones now? Has God's will changed, or did they simply believe and we "trust"? I am really not trying to be facitious, John. I am sincerely asking.

At what point to we become "the violent who take it by force" like the Samaritan woman? When do we close the gap between what today's Christians commonly experience and what the Bible clearly promises, without all the conditions, clear open-ended promises to men and women with the faith to apprehend from God...whosoever will... whatsoever you ask for when you pray.

It seems to me that we are not often really taught to "fight the good fight of faith" to exercise it, to work it, to ask for things from the hand of our Hevenly Father and know the joy of receiving the answers from His hand as a direct result of our believing prayer.

If believing is a command to us, when do we not wait for being "led to believe" and just obey,make our requests known to our God and believe for the answer? I ask this in true seeking, and not any aggression. I am really trying to get a grip on this. To me, there is a huge and obvious discrepancy between what early christians experienced in answers to prayer and what we experience commonly.

Thanks John.

[Amadeus]

Originally Posted by BruceG

I understand but in truth, if that is the case, God really does not answer many prayers with yes, does He? Getting answers to believing prayer is one of the promises clearly given by God to us, is it not? He said that these things were written that His joy might be in us our our joy might be full, that whatsoever we ask for when we pray, we are to believe we receive and we shall have, right?

I understand your points as to trust, but do you understand what I am saying here? How can we ask for something and not doubt in our hearts, if chances are the answer is no? What is the explanation for the discrepancy between multitudes of miracles in the book of Acts and a few patry ones now? Has God's will changed, or did they simply believe and we "trust"? I am really not trying to be facitious, John. I am sincerely asking.

At what point to we become "the violent who take it by force" like the Samaritan woman? When do we close the gap between what today's Christians commonly experience and what the Bible clearly promises, without all the conditions, clear open-ended promises to men and women with the faith to apprehend from God...whosoever will... whatsoever you ask for when you pray.

It seems to me that we are not often really taught to "fight the good fight of faith" to exercise it, to work it, to ask for things from the hand of our Hevenly Father and know the joy of receiving the answers from His hand as a direct result of our believing prayer.

If believing is a command to us, when do we not wait for being "led to believe" and just obey,make our requests known to our God and believe for the answer? I ask this in true seeking, and not any aggression. I am really trying to get a grip on this. To me, there is a huge and obvious discrepancy between what early christians experienced in answers to prayer and what we experience commonly.

Thanks John.

Essentially, what I am saying is that God has already provided all of the answers. When the questions are asked, if we have "eyes to see" and "ears to hear", we will see and hear.

I see no real difference between them and us. They were very few in number, but their testimonies were written down for our benefit. You say there is a discrepancy, but is there? How many in Bethlehem saw the miracles of Jesus in Jerusalem? How many in Jerusalem saw His miracles in Galilee?