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True2Ourselves Forums   > Community Topics > General Discussions  > The Land was Promised to Abraham, not Heaven

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  #21  
Old 08-13-2020, 11:29 PM
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Default Re: The Land was Promised to Abraham, not Heaven

Greetings again CatholicCrusader and Selene,
Quote:
Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader View Post
Well TrevorL, I am suspicious of people who are afraid of saying where they go to church, so I am done wit this conversation
Quote:
Originally Posted by Selene View Post
Perhaps, he doesn't attend any church. He may be church shopping. I don't think he's in any of the mainstream Protestant group.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader View Post
Nobody comes up with that 1,000 year interpretation on their own. That is straight out of a playbook.
There is not much difficulty in tracing the Bible teaching of the Millennium and the following two references may be sufficient:
Daniel 2:35,44–45 (KJV): 35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth. 44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. 45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.
Revelation 20:6 (KJV): Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


Also Gibbon in his history of the “Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire” speaks of the change in belief concerning the Millennium: “The ancient and popular doctrine of the Millennium was intimately connected with the second coming of Christ. As the works of creation had been finished in six days, their duration, in their present state, according to a tradition which was attributed to the prophet Elijah, was fixed to six thousand years. By the same analogy it was inferred that this long period of labor and contention, which was now almost elapsed (as they supposed), would be succeeded by a joyful Sabbath of a thousand years; and that Christ, with the triumphant band of the Saints and the elect who had escaped death, or who had been miraculously revived, would reign upon earth till the time appointed for the last and general resurrection. So pleasing was this hope to the minds of believers, that the New Jerusalem, the seat of this blissful kingdom, was quickly adorned with all the gayest colors of the imagination. A felicity consisting only of pure and spiritual pleasure would have appeared too refined for its inhabitants, who were still supposed to possess their human nature and senses. A garden of Eden with the amusements of pastoral life, was no longer suited to the advanced state of society which prevailed under the Roman Empire. A city was therefore erected, of gold and precious stones, and a supernatural plenty of corn and wine was bestowed on the adjacent territory; in the free enjoyment of whose spontaneous productions, the happy and benevolent people was never to be restrained by any jealous laws of exclusive property. The assurance of such a millennium was carefully inculcated by a succession of fathers, from Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, who conversed with the immediate disciples of the apostles, down to Lactantius, who was preceptor to the son of Constantine. Though it might not be universally received, it appears to have been the reigning sentiment of the orthodox believers; and it seems so well adapted to the desires and apprehensions of mankind, that it must have contributed in a very considerable degree to the progress of the Christian faith. But when the edifice of the church was almost completed, the temporary support was laid aside. The doctrine of Christ’s reign upon earth was at first treated as a profound allegory, was considered by degrees as a doubtful and useless opinion, and was at length rejected as the absurd invention of heresy and fanaticism. A mysterious prophecy (the Apocalypse) which still forms a part of the sacred canon, but which was thought to favor the exploded sentiment, has very narrowly escaped the proscription of the church.”

Kind regards
Trevor
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  #22  
Old 08-14-2020, 07:04 AM
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Default Re: The Land was Promised to Abraham, not Heaven

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Originally Posted by Selene View Post
Perhaps, he doesn't attend any church. He may be church shopping. I don't think he's in any of the mainstream Protestant group.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader View Post
Nobody comes up with that 1,000 year interpretation on their own. That is straight out of a playbook.
The Christian Church has consistently interpreted the 1000 year reign of peace mentioned in the Book of Revelation as the current age of the Church, the peace being that between God and man brought about by Christ’s redeeming sacrifice on the Cross. It is NOT something that comes after the final judgement.

The 1,000 year reign that Trevor speaks of is a heresy invented by man.
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  #23  
Old 08-14-2020, 03:48 PM
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Default Re: The Land was Promised to Abraham, not Heaven

Greetings again CatholicCrusader,
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Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader View Post
The Christian Church has consistently interpreted the 1000 year reign of peace mentioned in the Book of Revelation as the current age of the Church, the peace being that between God and man brought about by Christ’s redeeming sacrifice on the Cross. It is NOT something that comes after the final judgement.
I suggest that Gibbon's assessment is correct, but the Catholic Church went through two stages. At first they claimed that the Kingdom of God had arrived in the establishment of the Church in Rome under Constantine. But later, when Rome was sacked by the Vandals in AD 410, Augustine wrote his thesis on The City of God, replacing the concept of Catholic Rome being the Kingdom of God. I suggest that Augustine’s thesis was then adopted by the Church, and this agrees with your statement “The Christian Church has consistently interpreted the 1000 year reign of peace mentioned in the Book of Revelation as the current age of the Church”.
Quote:
The 1,000 year reign that Trevor speaks of is a heresy invented by man.
I have yet to see you answer the Scriptures that I quoted. Rather you only quote the “authority” of the Catholic Church.

Kind regards
Trevor
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  #24  
Old 08-14-2020, 06:05 PM
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Default Re: The Land was Promised to Abraham, not Heaven

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I suggest that Gibbon's assessment is correct
and I suggest that 2,000 years of constant Christian teaching is correct.
2,000 years of the church fathers, bishops and popes, saints and great doctors of the Church, the great eccumenical councils, and Holy Tradition & Holy Scripture.

Gibbons? Never heard of him.
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  #25  
Old 08-14-2020, 10:43 PM
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Default Re: The Land was Promised to Abraham, not Heaven

Greetings again CatholicCrusader,
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Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader View Post
Gibbons? Never heard of him.
Possibly you have only read one side of the story, but the following is the start of the wiki article.
Edward Gibbon (8 May 1737 – 16 January 1794) was an English historian, writer and Member of Parliament. His most important work, The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, was published in six volumes between 1776 and 1788 and is known for the quality and irony of its prose, its use of primary sources, and its polemical criticism of organised religion.
Quote:
and I suggest that 2,000 years of constant Christian teaching is correct. 2,000 years of the church fathers, bishops and popes, saints and great doctors of the Church, the great ecumenical councils, and Holy Tradition & Holy Scripture.
Another side of this story is that the Apostles warned that there would be a falling away from the truth, and there is evidence that some of this started in the times of the Apostles and towards the end of John’s life. A few examples of the many:
Acts 20:28–35 (KJV): 28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Spirit hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. 29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. 31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears. 32 And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified. 33 I have coveted no man’s silver, or gold, or apparel. 34 Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me. 35 I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.

1 John 2:18–19 (KJV): 18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

1 John 4:1–3 (KJV): 1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Revelation 2:2 (KJV): I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:


Kind regards
Trevor
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  #26  
Old 08-15-2020, 07:00 AM
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Default Re: The Land was Promised to Abraham, not Heaven

As I said:

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Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader View Post
Well TrevorL, I am suspicious of people who are afraid of saying where they go to church, so I am done with this conversation
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"God in his deepest mystery is not a solitude but a family, since he has in himself fatherhood, sonship and the essence of the family which is love"
- Saint Pope John Paul II

Last edited by CatholicCrusader : 08-16-2020 at 05:42 AM.
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  #27  
Old 08-16-2020, 01:21 AM
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Default Re: The Land was Promised to Abraham, not Heaven

Greetings again CatholicCrusader,
Quote:
Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader View Post
Well TrevorL, I am suspicious of people who are afraid of saying where they go to church, so I am done wit this conversation
That’s fine. You have expressed your view and rejected what I have presented. I looked again at the Wiki article on The Crusades and I was interested in the second part below which may fit your title:
The first part is the normal sense when we hear about the Crusades:
“The Crusades were a series of religious wars initiated, supported, and sometimes directed by the Latin Church in the medieval period. The term refers especially to the Eastern Mediterranean campaigns in the period between 1096 and 1271 that had the objective of recovering the Holy Land from Islamic rule.”

The second part is also relevant:
“The term has also been applied to other church-sanctioned campaigns fought to combat paganism and heresy, to resolve conflict among rival Roman Catholic groups, or to gain political and territorial advantage. The difference between these campaigns and other Christian religious conflicts was that they were considered a penitential exercise that brought forgiveness of sins declared by the church. Historians contest the definition of the term "crusade". Some restrict it to only armed pilgrimages to Jerusalem; others include all Catholic military campaigns with a promise of spiritual benefit; all Catholic holy wars; or those with a characteristic of religious fervour.

I have underlined the word “heresy” and possibly you may consider that you are a Catholic Crusader against some of the heresy in this thread.

I have recently read some detail about William Tyndale and the established Church in England and on Europe conducted a crusade against him. It appears part of his teaching is relevant to this thread. He rejected the immortal soul teaching and the concept that the faithful go to heaven at death. He taught that eternal life was rewarded when Christ returned, not at the moment of death.

The following is a brief summary of his teaching, the opposition that he faced, and the eventual success of the crusade against him when he was burnt at the stake.
“He carefully outlines the hope of the Christian as depending on faith and understanding of the revealed Word, not on obedience to church decrees. Eternal life is not inherent, but will be bestowed at the second coming of Christ in glory. In an even earlier work, Exposition upon certain words in Holy Scripture, he explains the Scriptural meaning and significance of “hell”, distinguishing carefully between sheol, hades and gehenna, the last a place of destruction into which the rejected will be consigned “at the general judgement”.

Sir Thomas More, Henry VIII’s Romanist Chancellor, vigorously attacked Tyndale’s works and what has been described as a literary war followed. More scorned belief in the return of Christ, asserting that the faithful should not have to wait aeons for their reward, but enter bliss with their last breath.

To which Tyndale replied:
“Christ and his apostles taught no other; but warned to look for Christ’s coming again every hour; which coming again because ye believe will never be, therefore ye have feigned that other merchandise.”

And again,
“I marvel that Paul had not comforted the Thessalonians with the doctrine, if he had wist (known) it, that the souls of their dead had been in joy; as he did with the resurrection, that their dead should rise again. If the souls be in heaven, in as great glory as the angels, after your doctrine, show me what cause should be of the resurrection?”

Tyndale was hounded around Europe, his Bibles destroyed by the crateload, and he was finally betrayed in Flanders to the Imperial authorities and burnt in the courtyard of Vilvoorde prison near Brussels.”

Kind regards
Trevor

Last edited by TrevorL : 08-16-2020 at 01:24 AM.
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  #28  
Old 08-17-2020, 06:15 AM
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Default Re: The Land was Promised to Abraham, not Heaven

Psalm 72 - The Coming New World Order Soon to be Established on Earth

Psalm 72 (KJV - with headings added)
A Psalm for Solomon

The King's Son
1 Give the king thy judgments, O God, and thy righteousness unto the king’s son.
2 He shall judge thy people with righteousness, and thy poor with judgment.
3 The mountains shall bring peace to the people, and the little hills, by righteousness.


The Blessings of His Reign
4 He shall judge the poor of the people, he shall save the children of the needy, and shall break in pieces the oppressor.
5 They shall fear thee as long as the sun and moon endure, throughout all generations.
6 He shall come down like rain upon the mown grass: as showers that water the earth.
7 In his days shall the righteous flourish; and abundance of peace so long as the moon endureth.


A World-Wide Kingdom
8 He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the earth.
9 They that dwell in the wilderness shall bow before him; and his enemies shall lick the dust.


The Nations Pay Homage
10 The kings of Tarshish and of the isles shall bring presents: the kings of Sheba and Seba shall offer gifts.
11 Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.
12 For he shall deliver the needy when he crieth; the poor also, and him that hath no helper.
13 He shall spare the poor and needy, and shall save the souls of the needy.
14 He shall redeem their soul from deceit and violence: and precious shall their blood be in his sight.
15 And he shall live, and to him shall be given of the gold of Sheba: prayer also shall be made for him continually; and daily shall he be praised.


The Earth Bountiful
16 There shall be an handful of corn in the earth upon the top of the mountains; the fruit thereof shall shake like Lebanon: and they of the city shall flourish like grass of the earth.
17 His name shall endure for ever: his name shall be continued as long as the sun: and men shall be blessed in him: all nations shall call him blessed.


The Whole World Filled with His Glory
18 Blessed be the LORD God, the God of Israel, who only doeth wondrous things.
19 And blessed be his glorious name for ever: and let the whole earth be filled with his glory; Amen, and Amen.
20 The prayers of David the son of Jesse are ended.


Psalm 72 is another clear evidence that the Scriptures teach that the Kingdom of God will be established upon the earth at the return of Jesus. This final public prayer of David, although addressed to Solomon, looks beyond his time to the greater son of David, Jesus Christ, who will return to establish his Kingdom on earth, replacing the present kingdoms of men Daniel 2:44. Luke records the words that Gabriel spoke to Mary concerning Jesus' future rule
Luke 1:32-33 (KJV): 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
Jesus will reign over the "house of Jacob" when he returns and "turns away ungodliness from Jacob" Romans 11:26.

The promises made to David concerning his son and David's throne are recorded in 2 Samuel 7:12-16. They state also that God would be his Father, and this is shown in its fulfillment in Luke 1:35, Jesus is the Son of God. This is the qualification for Jesus to be heir over God's dominion, God's kingdom, not only because he is God's Son by birth, but he revealed all the qualities of God's character, wisdom and love during his ministry, suffering and crucifixion. These qualities now coupled with all that he has received in his resurrection and exaltation are what is needed to fulfill Psalm 72 in the Coming New World Order Genesis 1:26, Psalm 8:6, Matthew 11:25-30, 21:37-38, 42-44, Acts 3:19-21.

Kind regards
Trevor
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