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True2Ourselves Forums   > Community Topics > General Discussions  > The Land was Promised to Abraham, not Heaven

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  #11  
Old 08-10-2020, 10:44 PM
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Default Re: The Land was Promised to Abraham, not Heaven

Greetings again Selene and CatholicCrusader,
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I also believe that Jesus will return.
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Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader View Post
Yes, Jesus will return
Yes I agree. Jesus will return and sit upon the Throne of David in Jerusalem for the 1000 years. Part of this process will be to overthrow the present religious and political kingdoms of men including the present day representation of the Roman Empire, the fourth metal of Daniel 2 or the fourth beast of Daniel 7 and the little horn of Daniel 8.

Kind regards
Trevor
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  #12  
Old 08-11-2020, 11:35 AM
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Default Re: The Land was Promised to Abraham, not Heaven

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Yes I agree. Jesus will return and sit upon the Throne of David in Jerusalem for the 1000 years..........
Whoa. . . slow down cowboy. We said Jesus would return. We never said he would sit upon a throne for the 1000 years. That is extremist propaganda. No REAL Christian buys that 1,000 years gobbledygook.

Jesus is already seated at the right hand of the Father, in Heaven. He will come again to judge the living and the dead.

That's it. The Kingdom of God is already here, in Jesus and the Church.
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Last edited by CatholicCrusader : 08-12-2020 at 08:22 AM.
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  #13  
Old 08-11-2020, 04:07 PM
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Default Re: The Land was Promised to Abraham, not Heaven

Greetings again CatholicCrusader,
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Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader View Post
Whoa. . . slow down cowboy. We said Jesus would return. We never said he would sit upon a throne for the 1000 years. That is extremist propaganda. No RAL Christian buys that 1,000 years gobbledygook. Jesus is already seated at the right hand of the Father, in Heaven. He will come again to judge the living and the dead. That's it. The Kingdom of God is already here, in Jesus and the Church.
The Kingdom is established at the return of Jesus:
2 Timothy 4:1,6-8 (KJV): 1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the living and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
1 Corinthians 15:22-25 (KJV): 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

I place this reference in 1 Corinthians in the same framework as the 2 Timothy reference. Jesus returns to the earth, rewards the faithful, establishes the Kingdom, reigns for the 1000 years over the mortal nations Isaiah 2:1-4, 65:17-26, Zechariah 14, and at the end of this period of rulership then even death itself is abolished, and the Kingdom is delivered up to God His Father, and Jesus becomes subject unto God, and the Yahweh Name is fulfilled, when God becomes All and in All, and the glory of Yahweh fills the earth Numbers 14:21.

Kind regards
Trevor
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  #14  
Old 08-12-2020, 08:22 AM
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Default Re: The Land was Promised to Abraham, not Heaven

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The Kingdom is established at the return of Jesus:
Nope. You have misinterpreted scripture.

May I ask what church you go to that taught you this stuff?
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"God in his deepest mystery is not a solitude but a family, since he has in himself fatherhood, sonship and the essence of the family which is love"
- Saint Pope John Paul II
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  #15  
Old 08-12-2020, 10:18 PM
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Default Re: The Land was Promised to Abraham, not Heaven

Greetings again CatholicCrusader,
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Nope. You have misinterpreted scripture.
Until you show how my understanding of all the Scriptures I quoted in my last post and other posts in this thread is a misinterpretation then I will hold onto my view. I suggest that these Scriptures are clear and speak for themselves. They speak specifically that Jesus will establish the Kingdom of God when he returns.
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May I ask what church you go to that taught you this stuff?
I prefer to discuss one Scripture or one topic at a time. There are possibly some other churches or groups that would agree with what I have stated in this thread and other threads, but they may differ on some other aspects.

Speaking of affiliation, does your title represent that you endorse the various Catholic Crusades and all that they were responsible for in these activities? Also in my “narrow” view I anticipate the Catholic Church becoming more prominent, in Europe, Italy and even endorsing Russia taking Constantinople. If my view is correct, do you think that you will endorse the RCC’s final crusade, aka the Battle of Armageddon Revelation 16:12-16?

Kind regards
Trevor
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  #16  
Old 08-13-2020, 07:12 AM
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Default Re: The Land was Promised to Abraham, not Heaven

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May I ask what church you go to that taught you this stuff?
I prefer to discuss one Scripture or one topic at a time.
I prefer transparency and honesty. There are only a couple of fringe extremist groups that teach that 1,000 year nonsense. I'll call them out if I have to, but I would rather see you transparently share where you go to church.


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Speaking of affiliation, does your title represent that you endorse the various Catholic Crusades
No, it does not. But I am proudly Roman Catholic.

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Until you show how my understanding of all the Scriptures I quoted in my last post and other posts in this thread is a misinterpretation then I will hold onto my view.
The 1,000 year nonsense is a part of Rapture teaching. The Rapture as it is popularly know is a false teaching, an invention of men that has only been around about 150 years. The Rapture has been thoroughly debunked by real Christian scholars and in many threads in this forum.

Premillennialism is the most popular type of the Rapture heresy among Fundamentalists and Evangelicals. Like postmillennialists, premillennialists believe that the thousand years is an earthly golden age during which the world will be thoroughly Christianized. Unlike postmillennialists, they believe that it will occur after the Second Coming rather than before, so that Christ reigns physically on earth during the millennium. They believe that the Final Judgment will occur only after the millennium is over, which many like you interpret to be an exactly one-thousand-year period.

But Scripture does not support the idea of a thousand year span between the Second Coming and the Final Judgment. Christ declares, “For the Son of man is to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay every man for what he has done” (Matt. 16:27), and “[w]hen the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. . . . And they [the goats] will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life” (Matt. 25:31–32, 46).

The Rapture

According to this doctrine, when Christ returns, all of the elect who have died will be raised and transformed into a glorious state, along with the living elect, and then be caught up to be with Christ. The key text referring to the rapture is 1 Thessalonians 4:16–17, which states, “For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord.”

Premillennialists hold, as do virtually all Christians (except certain postmillennialists), that the Second Coming will be preceded by a time of great trouble and persecution of God’s people (2 Thess. 2:1–4). This period is often called the tribulation. Until the nineteenth century, all Christians agreed that the rapture—though it was not called that at the time—would occur immediately before the Second Coming, at the close of the period of persecution. This position is today called the “post-tribulational” view because it says the rapture will come after the tribulation.

But in the 1800s, some began to claim that the rapture would occur before the period of persecution. This position, now known as the “pre-tribulational” view, also was embraced by John Nelson Darby, an early leader of a Fundamentalist movement that became known as Dispensationalism. Darby’s pre-tribulational view of the rapture was then picked up by a man named C. I. Scofield, who taught the view in the footnotes of his Scofield Reference Bible. Many Protestants who read the Scofield Reference Bible uncritically adopted the pre-tribulational view, even though no Christian had heard of it in the previous 1800 years of Church history.

Eventually, a third position developed, known as the “mid-tribulational” view, which claims that the rapture will occur during the middle of the tribulation. Finally, a fourth view developed that claims that there will not be a single rapture where all believers are gathered to Christ, but that there will be a series of mini-raptures that occur at different times with respect to the tribulation.

The problem with all of the positions (except the historic, post-tribulational view) is that they split the Second Coming into different events. In the case of the pre-trib view, Christ is thought to have three comings—one when he was born in Bethlehem, one when he returns for the rapture at the tribulation’s beginning, and one at tribulation’s end, when he establishes the millennium. This three-comings view is foreign to Scripture.

Problems with the pre-tribulational view are highlighted by Baptist (and premillennial) theologian Dale Moody, who wrote: “Belief in a pre-tribulational rapture . . . contradicts all three chapters in the New Testament that mention the tribulation and the rapture together (Mark 13:24–27; Matt. 24:26–31; 2 Thess. 2:1–12). . . . The theory is so biblically bankrupt that the usual defense is made using three passages that do not even mention a tribulation (John 14:3; 1 Thess. 4:17; 1 Cor. 15:52). These are important passages, but they have not had one word to say about a pre-tribulational rapture. . . . Pre-tribulationism is biblically bankrupt and does not know it” (The Word of Truth, 556–7).

What’s the Catholic Position?

As far as the millennium goes, we tend to agree with Augustine and, derivatively, with the amillennialists. The Catholic position has thus historically been “amillennial” (as has been the majority Christian position in general), though Catholics do not typically use this term. The Church has rejected the premillennial position, sometimes called “millenarianism” (see the Catechism of the Catholic Church 676). In the 1940s the Holy Office judged that premillennialism “cannot safely be taught,” though the Church has not dogmatically defined this issue.

With respect to the rapture, Catholics certainly believe that the event of our gathering together to be with Christ will take place, though they do not generally use the word “rapture” to refer to this event (somewhat ironically, since the term “rapture” is derived from the text of the Latin Vulgate of 1 Thess. 4:17—”we will be caught up,” [Latin: rapiemur]).
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"God in his deepest mystery is not a solitude but a family, since he has in himself fatherhood, sonship and the essence of the family which is love"
- Saint Pope John Paul II
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  #17  
Old 08-13-2020, 03:59 PM
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Default Re: The Land was Promised to Abraham, not Heaven

Greetings again CatholicCrusader,
Quote:
Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader View Post
I prefer transparency and honesty. There are only a couple of fringe extremist groups that teach that 1,000 year nonsense. I'll call them out if I have to, but I would rather see you transparently share where you go to church.
Fair enough, but I will stay with my policy of discussing one Scripture or one concept at a time. I will briefly answer and explain my perspective on the Kingdom.
Quote:
No, it does not. But I am proudly Roman Catholic.
The Crusades and many other aspects of the RCC testify that we should separate from the RCC.
Quote:
The 1,000 year nonsense is a part of Rapture teaching. The Rapture as it is popularly know is a false teaching, an invention of men that has only been around about 150 years. The Rapture has been thoroughly debunked by real Christian scholars and in many threads in this forum.
I do not accept the Rapture teaching, as I do not believe the faithful will go to heaven. But I am very conscious of Isaiah 26:20-21 where in the context of the resurrection, the faithful are able to be sheltered from the time of trouble. Possibly the present lockdown could be a taste of this.
Quote:
Premillennialism is the most popular type of the Rapture heresy among Fundamentalists and Evangelicals. Like postmillennialists, premillennialists believe that the thousand years is an earthly golden age during which the world will be thoroughly Christianized. Unlike postmillennialists, they believe that it will occur after the Second Coming rather than before, so that Christ reigns physically on earth during the millennium. They believe that the Final Judgment will occur only after the millennium is over, which many like you interpret to be an exactly one-thousand-year period.
The judgement of the faithful and unfaithful (not all of mankind Daniel 12:2-3) will be at the return of Jesus, not at the end of the 1000 years, so I agree with your quotation and comments on Matthew 16:27, 25:31-32,46.

Kind regards
Trevor
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  #18  
Old 08-13-2020, 05:00 PM
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Default Re: The Land was Promised to Abraham, not Heaven

Well TrevorL, I am suspicious of people who are afraid of saying where they go to church, so I am done with this conversation
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"God in his deepest mystery is not a solitude but a family, since he has in himself fatherhood, sonship and the essence of the family which is love"
- Saint Pope John Paul II

Last edited by CatholicCrusader : 08-16-2020 at 05:42 AM.
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  #19  
Old 08-13-2020, 06:00 PM
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Default Re: The Land was Promised to Abraham, not Heaven

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Well TrevorL, I am suspicious of people who are afraid of saying where they go to church, so I am done wit this conversation
Perhaps, he doesn't attend any church. He may be church shopping. I don't think he's in any of the mainstream Protestant group.
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  #20  
Old 08-13-2020, 08:32 PM
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Default Re: The Land was Promised to Abraham, not Heaven

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Perhaps, he doesn't attend any church. He may be church shopping. I don't think he's in any of the mainstream Protestant group.
Nobody comes up with that 1,000 year interpretation on their own. That is straight out of a playbook.
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- Saint Pope John Paul II
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