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True2Ourselves Forums   > Community Topics > General Discussions  > Who was Christs first disciple...

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  #21  
Old 07-15-2020, 06:54 PM
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Default Re: Who was Christs first disciple...

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Originally Posted by pryz View Post
.....Too much of this begins to add up.....
The truth hurts, I know
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- Saint Pope John Paul II

Last edited by CatholicCrusader : 07-17-2020 at 07:01 AM.
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  #22  
Old 07-16-2020, 01:34 PM
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Default Re: Who was Christs first disciple...

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Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader View Post
Oooookay, mellowed out now......

This is the difference between common sense and pryz's faulty Sola Scriptura approach to the Bible.

....here is one wayward brother (a Methodist) who actually gets it right: Even a blind squirrel can find a nut once in a while:

Mary Was The First Disciple
Mary should be venerated as much as are the apostles. She played as important a role as they did in giving the gospel to mankind.

But she is not a co-redemptrix, anymore than are the apostles.
Only the one who was sacrificed to expiate the justice of God on sin is, or can be, the Redeemer.
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  #23  
Old 07-17-2020, 01:10 AM
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Default Re: Who was Christs first disciple...

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Originally Posted by mtndot View Post
Mary should be venerated as much as are the apostles. She played as important a role as they did in giving the gospel to mankind.

But she is not a co-redemptrix, anymore than are the apostles.
Only the one who was sacrificed to expiate the justice of God on sin is, or can be, the Redeemer.
That is a false statement....and to be more specific...I attest that it would not bring anything to fruition trying to convince you other wise. I ascertain that most of us here are middle aged, set in out ways and are obvious to the truth in such matters. If you could only perceive the closeness that Jesus had for his mother and visa versa....think accurately what he said to her and St. John while he was on the cross. Notice he didn't say "mother".... his word was "woman". That carries a significant meaning don't you think? I say that knowing that he is talking in terms of "all mankind".

The Blessed Virgin Mary is our Spiritual Mother. The Trinity can not deny her anything....but here is the catch. The Blessed Virgin Mary will not ask of anything that does not fit into the "will" of her son.

Last edited by drifter10652 : 07-17-2020 at 01:12 AM.
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  #24  
Old 07-17-2020, 07:03 AM
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Default Re: Who was Christs first disciple...

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Originally Posted by mtndot View Post
Mary should be venerated as much as are the apostles. She played as important a role as they did in giving the gospel to mankind.
You think her role is equal to the apostles? I do not. She gave birth to the Son of God.

I can think of an endless list of reasons why her role in salvation history is unique.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mtndot View Post
But she is not a co-redemptrix, anymore than are the apostles.
Only the one who was sacrificed to expiate the justice of God on sin is, or can be, the Redeemer.
Here is a brief Q & A:
https://forums.catholic.com/t/mary-a...emptrix/1152/2

Q: I have a protestant friend who has a problem with the idea of Mary as “co-redemptrix”. Is this an official teaching of the Catholic Church, and what is a good way to explain it to him? Many thanks.

A: Mary as co-redemptrix is a doctrine not a dogma. When explaining this term to your friend, make sure he understands that the Church does not teach (never has and never will) that Mary as Co-redemptrix is equal to Christ. “Co” is from the Latin “cum,“ meaning “with”. “Trix” is a feminine suffix, so the word means “the woman with the redeemer”—the woman with the one doing the act of redemption.

Just as Eve participated in the fall by her consent and pride, Mary cooperates with the redemption of man by her consent and humility as handmaid of the Lord. She gave Jesus his body, and his body is what saved us.

*Lumen Gentium * says,
  • Thus Mary, a daughter of Adam, consenting to the divine Word, became the mother of Jesus, the one and only Mediator. Embracing God’s salvific will with a full heart and impeded by no sin, she devoted herself totally as a handmaid of the Lord to the person and work of her Son, under Him and with Him, by the grace of almighty God, serving the mystery of redemption. Rightly therefore the holy Fathers see her as used by God not merely in a passive way, but as freely cooperating in the work of human salvation through faith and obedience. For, as St. Irenaeus says, she “being obedient, became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race.”(6*) Hence not a few of the early Fathers gladly assert in their preaching, “The knot of Eve’s disobedience was untied by Mary’s obedience; what the virgin Eve bound through her unbelief, the Virgin Mary loosened by her faith.”(7*) Comparing Mary with Eve, they call her “the Mother of the living,”(8*) and still more often they say: “death through Eve, life through Mary.”
  • Predestined from eternity by that decree of divine providence which determined the incarnation of the Word to be the Mother of God, the Blessed Virgin was in this earth the virgin Mother of the Redeemer, and above all others and in a singular way the generous associate and humble handmaid of the Lord. She conceived, brought forth and nourished Christ. she presented Him to the Father in the temple, and was united with Him by compassion as He died on the Cross. In this singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope and burning charity in the work of the Saviour in giving back supernatural life to souls. Wherefore she is our mother in the order of grace.
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"God in his deepest mystery is not a solitude but a family, since he has in himself fatherhood, sonship and the essence of the family which is love"
- Saint Pope John Paul II

Last edited by CatholicCrusader : 07-17-2020 at 07:06 AM.
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  #25  
Old 07-17-2020, 03:27 PM
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Default Re: Who was Christs first disciple...

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Originally Posted by drifter10652 View Post
That is a false statement....and to be more specific...I attest that it would not bring anything to fruition trying to convince you other wise. I ascertain that most of us here are middle aged, set in out ways and are obvious to the truth in such matters. If you could only perceive the closeness that Jesus had for his mother and visa versa....think accurately what he said to her and St. John while he was on the cross. Notice he didn't say "mother".... his word was "woman". That carries a significant meaning don't you think? I say that knowing that he is talking in terms of "all mankind".

The Blessed Virgin Mary is our Spiritual Mother. The Trinity can not deny her anything....but here is the catch. The Blessed Virgin Mary will not ask of anything that does not fit into the "will" of her son.


-------------------------------
__________________
Saint Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle, be our protection against the malice and snares of the devil. May God rebuke him we humbly pray; and do thou, O Prince of the Heavenly host, by the power of God, thrust into hell Satan and all evil spirits who wander through the world for the ruin of souls. Amen.
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  #26  
Old 07-17-2020, 03:28 PM
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Default Re: Who was Christs first disciple...

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader View Post
You think her role is equal to the apostles? I do not. She gave birth to the Son of God.

I can think of an endless list of reasons why her role in salvation history is unique.




Here is a brief Q & A:
https://forums.catholic.com/t/mary-a...emptrix/1152/2

Q: I have a protestant friend who has a problem with the idea of Mary as “co-redemptrix”. Is this an official teaching of the Catholic Church, and what is a good way to explain it to him? Many thanks.

A: Mary as co-redemptrix is a doctrine not a dogma. When explaining this term to your friend, make sure he understands that the Church does not teach (never has and never will) that Mary as Co-redemptrix is equal to Christ. “Co” is from the Latin “cum,“ meaning “with”. “Trix” is a feminine suffix, so the word means “the woman with the redeemer”—the woman with the one doing the act of redemption.

Just as Eve participated in the fall by her consent and pride, Mary cooperates with the redemption of man by her consent and humility as handmaid of the Lord. She gave Jesus his body, and his body is what saved us.

*Lumen Gentium * says,
  • Thus Mary, a daughter of Adam, consenting to the divine Word, became the mother of Jesus, the one and only Mediator. Embracing God’s salvific will with a full heart and impeded by no sin, she devoted herself totally as a handmaid of the Lord to the person and work of her Son, under Him and with Him, by the grace of almighty God, serving the mystery of redemption. Rightly therefore the holy Fathers see her as used by God not merely in a passive way, but as freely cooperating in the work of human salvation through faith and obedience. For, as St. Irenaeus says, she “being obedient, became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race.”(6*) Hence not a few of the early Fathers gladly assert in their preaching, “The knot of Eve’s disobedience was untied by Mary’s obedience; what the virgin Eve bound through her unbelief, the Virgin Mary loosened by her faith.”(7*) Comparing Mary with Eve, they call her “the Mother of the living,”(8*) and still more often they say: “death through Eve, life through Mary.”
  • Predestined from eternity by that decree of divine providence which determined the incarnation of the Word to be the Mother of God, the Blessed Virgin was in this earth the virgin Mother of the Redeemer, and above all others and in a singular way the generous associate and humble handmaid of the Lord. She conceived, brought forth and nourished Christ. she presented Him to the Father in the temple, and was united with Him by compassion as He died on the Cross. In this singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope and burning charity in the work of the Saviour in giving back supernatural life to souls. Wherefore she is our mother in the order of grace.


----------------------------------------
__________________
Saint Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle, be our protection against the malice and snares of the devil. May God rebuke him we humbly pray; and do thou, O Prince of the Heavenly host, by the power of God, thrust into hell Satan and all evil spirits who wander through the world for the ruin of souls. Amen.
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  #27  
Old 07-17-2020, 03:49 PM
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Default Re: Who was Christs first disciple...

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Originally Posted by drifter10652 View Post
That is a false statement....
Not sure which statement is false.

Quote:
and to be more specific...I attest that it would not bring anything to fruition trying to convince you other wise. I ascertain that most of us here are middle aged, set in out ways and are obvious to the truth in such matters. If you could only perceive the closeness that Jesus had for his mother and visa versa....think accurately what he said to her and St. John while he was on the cross. Notice he didn't say "mother".... his word was "woman". That carries a significant meaning don't you think? I say that knowing that he is talking in terms of "all mankind".
I guess Jesus likewise addressing her in Jn 2:4 as "woman," as well as addressing the Samaritan woman in Jn 4:21, the adulteress in Jn 8:10, and the cripple in Lk 13:12 as "woman" causes me not to think it carries a significant meaning.

Quote:
The Blessed Virgin Mary is our Spiritual Mother.
Sure wish I could find that presented at least somewhere in the teaching of the apostles, or in the creeds, which are my rule for what is to be believed, for what are the doctrines of the Apostolic faith.

Quote:
The Trinity can not deny her anything....but here is the catch. The Blessed Virgin Mary will not ask of anything that does not fit into the "will" of her son.
Being in Christ and the bride of Christ, I likewise have "confident access to the throne of grace" (Heb 4:16, 10:19; 1Jn 5:14) knowing that "I have not because I ask not of God" (Jas 4:2), and that "I will have what I ask of him" (1Jn 3:21, 5:14-15). . .to which truth I can testify.

Keeping in mind that the marriage relationship transcends all relationships. Bride and groom are one flesh. The man leaves his earthly parents to cleave to his wife. If you are not Christ's bride (Eph 5:31-32), you do not belong to Christ.

The word Jesus used for "woman" in the NT Greek, when he addressed his mother in Jn 19:26, is gune, which means "wife."
Would you attribute a significant meaning to it, "talking in terms of all mankind," regarding those in Christ who are the Church, the bride of Christ?

Last edited by mtndot : 07-19-2020 at 11:27 AM.
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  #28  
Old 07-19-2020, 02:51 PM
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Default Re: Who was Christs first disciple...

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader View Post
Here is a brief Q & A:

Q: I have a protestant friend who has a problem with the idea of Mary as “co-redemptrix”. Is this an official teaching of the Catholic Church, and what is a good way to explain it to him? Many thanks.

A: Mary as co-redemptrix is a doctrine not a dogma. When explaining this term to your friend, make sure he understands that the Church does not teach (never has and never will) that Mary as Co-redemptrix is equal to Christ. “Co” is from the Latin “cum,“ meaning “with”. “Trix” is a feminine suffix, so the word means “the woman with the redeemer”—the woman with the one doing the act of redemption.

Just as Eve participated in the fall by her consent and pride, Mary cooperates with the redemption of man by her consent and humility as handmaid of the Lord. She gave Jesus his body, and his body is what saved us.

*Lumen Gentium * says,
[list]Thus Mary, a daughter of Adam, consenting to the divine Word, became the mother of Jesus, the one and only Mediator. Embracing God’s salvific will with a full heart and impeded by no sin, she devoted herself totally as a handmaid of the Lord to the person and work of her Son, under Him and with Him, by the grace of almighty God, serving the mystery of redemption. Rightly therefore the holy Fathers see her as used by God not merely in a passive way, but as freely cooperating in the work of human salvation through faith and obedience. For, as St. Irenaeus says, she “being obedient, became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race.”(6*) Hence not a few of the early Fathers gladly assert in their preaching, “The knot of Eve’s disobedience was untied by Mary’s obedience; what the virgin Eve bound through her unbelief, the Virgin Mary loosened by her faith.”(7*) Comparing Mary with Eve, they call her “the Mother of the living,”(8*)
and still more often they say: “death through Eve, life through Mary.”
Thanks. . .but what they say is contrary to the NT Word of God written.
All of God's genealogical reckonings are done through the father, not through the mother. See the NT genealogies of Jesus.

God holds us guilty of Adam's sin (Ro 5:12-21), not Eve's.
Eternal life is through the Spirit of Jesus (Jn 3:3, 5-6), not through Mary.

Quote:
Predestined from eternity by that decree of divine providence which determined the incarnation of the Word to be the Mother of God, the Blessed Virgin was in this earth the virgin Mother of the Redeemer, and above all others and in a singular way the generous associate and humble handmaid of the Lord. She conceived, brought forth and nourished Christ. she presented Him to the Father in the temple,
Did not both Joseph and Mary present Jesus in the Temple?

Quote:
and was united with Him by compassion as He died on the Cross. In this singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope and burning charity in the work of the Saviour in giving back supernatural life to souls. Wherefore she is our mother in the order of grace.
However, in the Word of God written, the work of the Savior was to save us from the wrath of God on our inherited sin of Adam (Ro 5:12-21), done only by the one offering of the perfect (sinless) atoning sacrifice by the one perfect High Priest (Heb 9:28, 10:10).

Last edited by mtndot : 07-19-2020 at 03:10 PM.
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  #29  
Old 07-19-2020, 10:50 PM
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Default Re: Who was Christs first disciple...

To mtndot....

Curious.....after reading some of your posts, I can't help but wonder what your thoughts are on Marian Apparitions?
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  #30  
Old 07-19-2020, 11:51 PM
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Default Re: Who was Christs first disciple...

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Originally Posted by mtndot View Post


I guess Jesus likewise addressing her in Jn 2:4 as "woman," as well as addressing the Samaritan woman in Jn 4:21, the adulteress in Jn 8:10, and the cripple in Lk 13:12 as "woman" causes me not to think it carries a significant meaning.
Jesus addressing the Samaritan woman or the crippled woman as "woman" is not the same as when He called His mother "woman". The Samaritan woman and the crippled woman were not His mother. For a son to address His mother as "woman" is odd; therefore,it does have significant meaning otherwise it would seem that Jesus was being disrespectful toward His mother. And we know that Christ would never be rude nor disrespectful toward His mother because he was perfect in following all Ten Commandments including the one saying to honor they father and mother.

In Genesis, the first name given to Eve was "Woman". She was later called Eve because she became the mother of the living. When Jesus addressed His mother as "Woman" (And He called her "Woman" twice in the Bible), Christ was telling us that His mother is now the "New Eve"......the new mother of the living. Thus, we call Mary "Our Blessed Mother" and Christ is our brother.
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