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True2Ourselves Forums   > Community Topics > General Discussions  > Crucifix Exodus 20:4

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  #1  
Old 11-06-2018, 10:44 PM
PastorFranszwa's Avatar
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Post Crucifix Exodus 20:4

Why You Should Not Wear a Crucifix
Question: What harm is there, we ask, in the worshipper surrounding her/himself with statues and pictures, if they help her/him to lift her/his heart to God? More important, how does God feel about the matter? Consider what his written Word, the Holy Bible, says.
Answer: But the very wording of the [second] commandment rules out such a limiting exposition.
Exodus 20:4 God says quite categorically, “you shall not make an idol in the form of anything” for use in worship. And Isaiah 30:22
And the Bible say that whatever else the second commandment teaches “there is no room for doubting that the commandment obliges us to disassociate our worship, both in public and in private, from all pictures and statues of Christ, no less than from pictures and statues of his Father.”
Why? Why is this prohibition in place and why is it so important that we heed it? The point is; DisObedience to His Commends. ( Satan must be enjoying this. ) God offers 5 reasons.
1. Images dishonour God, for you ( we ) obscure His glory.
2. The likeness of things in heaven Exodus 20:4 (Angels, sun, moon, stars), and in earth (people, animals, birds, insects), and in the sea (fishes, mammals, crustaceans), is precisely not a likeness of their Creator. “ John 4:24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth. ”A true image of God, is not to be found in all the world; and hence … his glory is defiled, and his truth corrupted by the lie, whenever he is set before our eyes in a visible form … Therefore, to devise any image of God is itself impious; because by this corruption his majesty is adulterated, and he is figured to be other than He is.” John 1:18 No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.… The heart of the objection to pictures and images is that they inevitably conceal most, if not all, of the truth about the personal nature and character of the divine Being whom they represent.
3. Images mislead us. They convey false ideas about God. The very inadequacy with which they represent him perverts our thoughts of him, and plants in our minds errors of all sorts about his character and will. … What does the Bible say about deceit? It is very clear in the Bible that deceit is an act that God hates. In order to follow the Lord’s path deceit cannot be in your heart and soul.
4. Religion is part of the blame . 2 Corinthians 11:13 For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ.
5. Just what is the nature of this deception? Notice Jesus’ specific warning: “Take heed that no man deceive you.
6. Ephesians 5:6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient.
These examples show how images will falsify the truth of God in the minds of men. Psychologically, it is certain that if you habitually focus your thoughts on an image or picture of the One to whom you are going to pray, you will come to think of Him, and pray to Him, as the image represents Him. Thus, you will in this sense “bow down” and “worship” your image; and to the extent to which the image fails to tell the truth about God, to that extent will you fail to worship God in truth. That is why God forbids you and me to make use of images and pictures in our worship.
It is the craft of Satan to make us think and speak of the Divine law as uncertain or unreasonable, and so to draw us to sin; it is our wisdom to keep up a firm belief of God's commands, and a high respect for it. Proverbs 28:9 If one turns away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer is an abomination. Please copy this and share it with your love ones and friends.
The reader is left to decide whether he believes God, or the ministers of any religion. When anyone turns a deaf ear to the word of God, here above, God will ‘give up’ on him and allow the devil to control your life. *
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  #2  
Old 11-07-2018, 12:55 PM
CatholicCrusader's Avatar
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Default Re: Crucifix Exodus 20:4

Quote:
Originally Posted by PastorFranszwa View Post
.....1. Images dishonour God, for you ( we ) obscure His glory.......
That is absolutely WRONG!

The commandment about “graven images” is one of the most misunderstood scriptures. Consider Exodus 25: 18-19: “And make two cherubim out of hammered gold at the ends of the cover. Make one cherub on one end and the second cherub on the other; make the cherubim of one piece with the cover, at the two ends.” Here, God is commanding that images be made!

So is God contradicting himself? First he says don’t make a graven image, and then he orders graven images to be made? No, he is not contradicting himself. The problem is that folks have misinterpreted the words “graven image.”

According to Strong’s Concordance, the original Hebrew words that were translated into “graven image” referred to idols (Here is the concordance link: Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon ). Of course, we know that an idol is a false god, or something that you place above God. Since the Cheribum are not false Gods, there is no contradiction.

Therefore, statues in Catholic Churches are not a violation of the commandment either. They are not idols, because they are not false Gods. My Church has a statue of an angel, just like God commanded the Israelites to make. We have a statue of Jesus, who is CERTAINLY not a false God. We have statues of saints because they are heroes of the faith, not gods - just like America has statues of its heroes – Washington, Lincoln, etc. – and those are not idols either.

Bottom line: The commandments forbid images of false idols or false gods, but there is nothing wrong with a crucifix, beautiful artwork of Jesus, Mary, or angels, whether that artwork be paintings, statues, or whatever.
__________________

"God in his deepest mystery is not a solitude but a family, since he has in himself fatherhood, sonship and the essence of the family which is love"
- Saint Pope John Paul II
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Old 11-08-2018, 02:02 AM
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Default Re: Crucifix Exodus 20:4

Quote:
Originally Posted by PastorFranszwa View Post
3. Images mislead us.
Thanks to CC, ,
“But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works [of the law] to serve the living God?”

“He cleansed their hearts by faith.”

“, , let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith,
having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience”


(Hebrews 9:11-14, Acts 15:9, Hebrews 10:22)
I pray the Lord keeps our hearts free of improper entanglement! Yes, images can mislead the eye > mind > heart. After many years, decades of both reproduction and conception-to-completion of graphic and fine art images for industry and personal enterprise, Trompe-l'œil (French for "deceive the eye") has eked it’s way into so many created forms in so much of the world’s culture it would be next to impossible to define.

Why just look at that avatar in front of your screen-name Pastor, , it looks as though that fella is walking right in front of that graduated box (aka ‘half-tone’). But graduations are beautiful and cartoons are light-hearted and easily digested.

Ask someone who knows the depth of an excruciated conscience shortly after being saved. The Lord let me know early on to take care of how I should use my talent. For purposes of testimony and against family wishes back then in the seventies, it is this that kept me from applying academically to jumpstart the career.
Finally, brothers and sisters, ,
whatever is lovely, ,
think about such things.


(Philippians 4:8)
It’s no longer a crucifix to me, when the world sees the cross around the globe, there is no question what reputation, what understand of one Man, His mission and message is being forwarded, , it is the Gospel Truth to me and entirely secure by the “sprinkling” work to assign any set of words to each member, horizontal and vertical,
Jesus Christ
Gospel Truth
Grace & Truth
God’s Mercy
Let’s Believe
Follow Me
Die Daily
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Old 11-08-2018, 05:32 AM
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Default Re: Crucifix Exodus 20:4

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader View Post
That is absolutely WRONG!

The commandment about “graven images” is one of the most misunderstood scriptures. Consider Exodus 25: 18-19: “And make two cherubim out of hammered gold at the ends of the cover. Make one cherub on one end and the second cherub on the other; make the cherubim of one piece with the cover, at the two ends.” Here, God is commanding that images be made!

So is God contradicting himself? First he says don’t make a graven image, and then he orders graven images to be made? No, he is not contradicting himself. The problem is that folks have misinterpreted the words “graven image.”

According to Strong’s Concordance, the original Hebrew words that were translated into “graven image” referred to idols (Here is the concordance link: Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon ). Of course, we know that an idol is a false god, or something that you place above God. Since the Cheribum are not false Gods, there is no contradiction.

Therefore, statues in Catholic Churches are not a violation of the commandment either. They are not idols, because they are not false Gods. My Church has a statue of an angel, just like God commanded the Israelites to make. We have a statue of Jesus, who is CERTAINLY not a false God. We have statues of saints because they are heroes of the faith, not gods - just like America has statues of its heroes – Washington, Lincoln, etc. – and those are not idols either.

Bottom line: The commandments forbid images of false idols or false gods, but there is nothing wrong with a crucifix, beautiful artwork of Jesus, Mary, or angels, whether that artwork be paintings, statues, or whatever.
Do people pray to them, bow down to them, and wipe them with handkerchief and kiss them ?

ped
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Old 11-08-2018, 08:18 AM
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Default Re: Crucifix Exodus 20:4

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElpidioLGagolinan View Post
Do people pray to them, bow down to them, and wipe them with handkerchief and kiss them ?

ped
You're changing the subject. The thread says that just wearing them is bad. I am saying that is WRONG.

QUOTE:

From its beginning, the Church has reverenced the image of Christ on his cross and has considered the manner in which Christ died to be an integral part of the gospel. St. Paul wrote:
For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God (1 Cor. 1:21–24, emphasis added).
The Catechism of the Catholic Church notes that we do not merely preach Christ’s resurrection but the resurrection of the one who was crucified, which acts as a confirmation of the divinity of God the Son:
The truth of Jesus’ divinity is confirmed by his resurrection. He had said: “When you have lifted up the son of man, then you will know that I am he.” The resurrection of the crucified one shows that he was truly “I AM,” the Son of God and God himself (653, emphasis added).
When Protestants ask why Catholics use a crucifix instead of a bare cross, the answer then is twofold. We don’t separate Christ’s body from his cross because we value both his body and his cross. God the Son died as man to save the world, which means that his human body is sacred and worthy of our worship. And since he chose to die by crucifixion, the cross on which he died is worthy of our veneration because that was the means by which he saved the world. A bare cross has no value unless it is clearly his cross. As Paul said:
Far be it from me to glory except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world (Gal. 6:14).


source: https://www.catholic.com/magazine/on...ss-or-crucifix

"For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles (1 Corinthians 1:22,23)

Quote:
Originally Posted by pryz View Post
......I pray the Lord keeps our hearts free of improper entanglement! Yes, images can mislead the eye > mind > heart.........
I am not sure how the image of Christ could mislead the eye or be an improper entanglement.
__________________

"God in his deepest mystery is not a solitude but a family, since he has in himself fatherhood, sonship and the essence of the family which is love"
- Saint Pope John Paul II

Last edited by CatholicCrusader : 11-08-2018 at 08:29 AM.
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  #6  
Old 11-08-2018, 11:30 AM
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Default Re: Crucifix Exodus 20:4

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader View Post
I am not sure how the image of Christ could mislead the eye or be an improper entanglement.
Well yes, the close of my comment differs from the body of it, if that is where I confused things; the passing strength of the second commandment, over the making of images which the OP was trying to build upon.
.
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Old 11-08-2018, 04:49 PM
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Default Re: Crucifix Exodus 20:4

Quote:
Originally Posted by pryz View Post
Well yes, the close of my comment differs from the body of it, if that is where I confused things; the passing strength of the second commandment, over the making of images which the OP was trying to build upon.
.
Check this out (and don't get confused by the commandment number) with focus on sections 2129 thru 2132:
SECTION TWO THE TEN COMMANDMENTS, CHAPTER ONE "YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND", ARTICLE 1 THE FIRST COMMANDMENT
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"God in his deepest mystery is not a solitude but a family, since he has in himself fatherhood, sonship and the essence of the family which is love"
- Saint Pope John Paul II
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Old 11-08-2018, 06:53 PM
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Default Re: Crucifix Exodus 20:4

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Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader View Post
That is absolutely WRONG!
Exactly. Any one that says they are wrong are not worth their salt.
__________________
Saint Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle, be our protection against the malice and snares of the devil. May God rebuke him we humbly pray; and do thou, O Prince of the Heavenly host, by the power of God, thrust into hell Satan and all evil spirits who wander through the world for the ruin of souls. Amen.
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Old 11-08-2018, 07:21 PM
pryz's Avatar
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Default Re: Crucifix Exodus 20:4

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader View Post
I am not sure how the image of Christ could mislead the eye or be an improper entanglement.
I spoke in post-3 concerning points 2, 3 and 6’s misleading objectives of overwrought concern which the scriptures declare we have reasonable “assurance”. Not some figurative,
Quote:
Originally Posted by PastorFranszwa View Post
“bow down” and “worship” your image
.
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Old 11-08-2018, 11:28 PM
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Default Re: Crucifix Exodus 20:4

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader View Post
You're changing the subject. The thread says that just wearing them is bad. I am saying that is WRONG.

QUOTE:

From its beginning, the Church has reverenced the image of Christ on his cross and has considered the manner in which Christ died to be an integral part of the gospel. St. Paul wrote:
For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God (1 Cor. 1:21–24, emphasis added).
The Catechism of the Catholic Church notes that we do not merely preach Christ’s resurrection but the resurrection of the one who was crucified, which acts as a confirmation of the divinity of God the Son:
The truth of Jesus’ divinity is confirmed by his resurrection. He had said: “When you have lifted up the son of man, then you will know that I am he.” The resurrection of the crucified one shows that he was truly “I AM,” the Son of God and God himself (653, emphasis added).
When Protestants ask why Catholics use a crucifix instead of a bare cross, the answer then is twofold. We don’t separate Christ’s body from his cross because we value both his body and his cross. God the Son died as man to save the world, which means that his human body is sacred and worthy of our worship. And since he chose to die by crucifixion, the cross on which he died is worthy of our veneration because that was the means by which he saved the world. A bare cross has no value unless it is clearly his cross. As Paul said:
Far be it from me to glory except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world (Gal. 6:14).


source: https://www.catholic.com/magazine/on...ss-or-crucifix

"For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles (1 Corinthians 1:22,23)



I am not sure how the image of Christ could mislead the eye or be an improper entanglement.
I thought the subject is Exodus 20;4. Hmm.....

ped
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