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True2Ourselves Forums   > Community Topics > General Discussions  > Crucifix Exodus 20:4

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  #11  
Old 11-09-2018, 06:09 AM
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Default Re: Crucifix Exodus 20:4

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Originally Posted by ElpidioLGagolinan View Post
I thought the subject is Exodus 20;4. Hmm.....

ped
Dude, why do you keep flip flopping. Yes, the subject is generally about Exodus, but the OP is about wearing crucifixes, not kissing them and bowing to them as you suggested.
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  #12  
Old 11-09-2018, 06:11 AM
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Default Re: Crucifix Exodus 20:4

Idolatry is the sin of giving divine worship given to an image or to anything other than God. Simply having an image or looking at it - or wearing it - is not idolatry
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  #13  
Old 11-09-2018, 06:16 AM
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Default Re: Crucifix Exodus 20:4

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Originally Posted by pryz View Post
Originally Posted by PastorFranszwa
“bow down” and “worship” your image
Ahhh, and there is the rub: Is bowing worshiping? Its quite obvious to any descent person that Catholics and Eastern Orthodox do not "worship" physical items. I mean really, what sort of insane doofus would you have to be to do that.

BUT: We do engage in practices that evangelicals and fundamentalists on the outside looking in wrongly perceive as worship.

For example, sometimes they cite Deuteronomy 5:9, where God said concerning idols, "You shall not bow down to them." Since many Catholics sometimes bow or kneel in front of statues of Jesus and the saints, anti-Catholics confuse the legitimate veneration of a sacred image with the sin of idolatry.

Though bowing can be used as a posture in worship, not all bowing is worship. In Japan, people show respect by bowing in greeting (the equivalent of the Western handshake). Similarly, a person can kneel before a king without worshipping him as a god. In the same way, a Catholic who may kneel in front of a statue while praying isn’t worshipping the statue or even praying to it, any more than the Protestant who kneels with a Bible in his hands when praying is worshipping the Bible or praying to it.
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  #14  
Old 11-09-2018, 06:53 PM
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Default Re: Crucifix Exodus 20:4

I am not debating the right or wrong of this issue, I am not arguing for or against the wearing of, the bowing down to, or a kissing of a Crucifix or Statue.

What I am interested in though is, the wording or terminology used in such cases as being an acceptable form of Veneration, based upon the belief that such Veneration is not considered to be Worship and therefore acceptable by those who practice such.

The word VENERATION:
Noun
1)* The*act*of*venerating.
2)* The*state*of*being*venerated.
3)* The*feeling*of a*person*who*venerates; a*feeling*of*awe,*respect,*etc.;*reverence:

Related Words for*veneration adoration,*reverence,*idolization,*respect,*admiration,*este em,*honor,*wrath,*vengeance,*repayment,*awe, worship,*devotion

Word Origin and History for*veneration
Noun
Early*15c.,*from*Middle*French*veneration*,*
from*Latin*venerationem*(nominative*veneratio*)*"reverence,"
from*past*participle*stem*of*venerari*"to*worship,*revere,"*
from*venus*(genitive*veneris*)*"beauty,*love,desire"*(see*Ve nus).

Question.

1)* When a Buddhist or Hindu, Bow Down to, or Kiss an Image of The Buddha, or Vishnu, are they Worshiping?

2)* When they Pray to, light Candles or Incense in front of these Images, are they Worshiping?

If these Buddhists, and Hindus are in fact Worshiping, why then is the Christian considered to not be doing as the same?


JIM
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  #15  
Old 11-10-2018, 12:28 AM
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Default Re: Crucifix Exodus 20:4

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader View Post
Dude, why do you keep flip flopping. Yes, the subject is generally about Exodus, but the OP is about wearing crucifixes, not kissing them and bowing to them as you suggested.
with the Catholics emphasis on works , would it be along the same line tthat other works concerning cruciffix be considered ?

Are we going to deal with technicallity or make sure we are in right standing with God ?

ped
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  #16  
Old 11-10-2018, 09:19 AM
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Default Re: Crucifix Exodus 20:4

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lookinforacity View Post
[size="3"]I am not debating the right or wrong of this issue, I am not arguing for or against the wearing of, the bowing down to, or a kissing of a Crucifix or Statue.

What I am interested in though is, the wording or terminology used in such cases as being an acceptable form of Veneration, based upon the belief that such Veneration is not considered to be Worship and therefore acceptable by those who practice such.

The word VENERATION:
Noun
1)* The*act*of*venerating.
2)* The*state*of*being*venerated.
3)* The*feeling*of a*person*who*venerates; a*feeling*of*awe,*respect,*etc.;*reverence:

Related Words for*veneration adoration,*reverence,*idolization,*respect,*admiration,*este em,*honor,*wrath,*vengeance,*repayment,*awe, worship,*devotion.........
You cannot use secular dictionaries for these things. They lack the nuance. As with many words from another language, something is lost in the translation.

In Catholic context, Veneration is honor or high respect. If you are in a courtroom and you call the judge "Your Honor" are you worshiping him? No. He is just being given the honor afforded to his position.

Saints are heroes of the Faith, and we honor them with the honor due. But we do not worship them.

Now, what the heck has this got to do with objects like crucifixes. I think you are way off topic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lookinforacity View Post
1)* When a Buddhist or Hindu, Bow Down to, or Kiss an Image of The Buddha, or Vishnu, are they Worshiping?
2)* When they Pray to, light Candles or Incense in front of these Images, are they Worshiping?
I haven't got the slightest idea what Buddhists think or do or why they do or think what they do, and neither do I care. They have NOTHING to do with what I think and believe. Why would you even bring Buddhists up!
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- Saint Pope John Paul II

Last edited by CatholicCrusader : 11-13-2018 at 06:32 AM.
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  #17  
Old 11-12-2018, 11:34 PM
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Default Re: Crucifix Exodus 20:4

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader View Post
(1) You cannot use secular dictionaries for these things. They lack the nuance. As with many words from another language, something is lost in the translation.

(2) In Catholic context, Veneration is honor or high respect. If you are in a courtroom and you call the judge "Your Honor" are you worshiping him? No. He is being the honor afforded to his position.

(3) Saints are heroes of the Faith, and we honor them with the honor due. But we do not worship them.

(4) Now, what the heck has this got to do with objects like crucifixes. I think you are way off topic.

(5) I haven't got the slightest idea what Buddhists think or do or why they do or think what they do, and neither do I care. They have NOTHING to do with what I think and believe. Why would you even bring Buddhists up!

.
(1) Well CC we have to use the secular Dictionaries because the word Venerate, Venerated, Veneration do not appear in the Bible, therefore the word itself comes from secular belief.

(2) So what your saying is, only to a Catholic this word Veneration meant this and that, don't you understand that anyone who is not a Catholic and has not been taught these types of things, like the Catholic meaning and Definitions, don't believe what your saying as truth, and do not believe the same as you do?

(3) These are Saints according to the Bible.

Eph. 2:19*
Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

(4) When you use words like Veneration and have an incorrect Definition of that word, then your Definition needs to be corrected, that is what it has to do with Crucifixes, your the one who used the word, you introduced it into this topic, therefore it is fair game for correction.

(5) I was doing nothing more than showing the similarities between Catholics, Buddhists, and Hindus whereby all Pray, Bow down to, and Venerate Statues, and other Religious Objects, but everyone would say that the Buddhist and the Hindu are Worshiping their Statues, whereas you say you are not, what then is the difference in this sort of VENERATION, why is one Veneration different from another's Veneration?

JIM

Last edited by Lookinforacity : 11-12-2018 at 11:38 PM.
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  #18  
Old 11-13-2018, 06:53 AM
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Arrow Re: Crucifix Exodus 20:4

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lookinforacity View Post
(1) Well CC we have to use the secular Dictionaries because the word Venerate, Venerated, Veneration do not appear in the Bible, therefore the word itself comes from secular belief.
There are religious encyclopedias and other books that explain things. The New Advent Encyclopedia is online: NEW ADVENT: Home

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lookinforacity View Post
(2) So what your saying is, only to a Catholic this word Veneration meant this and that, don't you understand that anyone who is not a Catholic and has not been taught these types of things, like the Catholic meaning and Definitions, don't believe what your saying as truth, and do not believe the same as you do?
Don't forget the Eastern Orthodox, like Father Linsinbilgler, who generally believe the same thing, as do Tradidional Anglicans and others. Don'ts single out Catholics.

But yes, I understand what you are saying, but I cannot help it if people who don't know these things don't believe me. What the heck am I supposed to do about that. They have the internet just like you do, and if you can find out about it so can they. But some people just don't want to learn these things. They would rather call mean idolater and walk away with smug satisfaction. There are people like that you know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lookinforacity View Post
(3) These are Saints according to the Bible.
Eph. 2:19*
Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Yes, I know. I was referring to cannonized saints, saints that have been proclaimed to be in heaven. A Catholic usually is referring to cannonized saints when he says "the saints." Its a cultural thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lookinforacity View Post
(4) When you use words like Veneration and have an incorrect Definition of that word, then your Definition needs to be corrected, that is what it has to do with Crucifixes, your the one who used the word, you introduced it into this topic, therefore it is fair game for correction.
My definition is not incorrect. I use the word in the context of the Catholic Faith, and in that context it is correct.

Look at this, I don't even think this is Catholic: https://www.biblicalcyclopedia.com/D/dulia.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lookinforacity View Post
(5) I was doing nothing more than showing the similarities between Catholics, Buddhists, and Hindus whereby all Pray, Bow down to, and Venerate Statues, and other Religious Objects, but everyone would say that the Buddhist and the Hindu are Worshiping their Statues, whereas you say you are not, what then is the difference in this sort of VENERATION, why is one Veneration different from another's Veneration?
You cannot make those comparisons, any more than I can compare you to a Muslim because you both kneel when you pray. You kneel, they kneel, ergo you worship Allah. They are worthless comparisons. That would be like you wearing a tie to church on Sunday and me pointing out that Hitler wore ties too and then make some sort of comparison. It would have no merit at all.
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  #19  
Old 11-13-2018, 05:22 PM
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Lightbulb Re: Crucifix Exodus 20:4

It is the craft of Satan to make us think and speak of the Divine law as uncertain or unreasonable, and so to draw us to sin; it is our wisdom to keep up a firm belief of God's commands, and a high respect for it.
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  #20  
Old 11-13-2018, 06:59 PM
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Default Re: Crucifix Exodus 20:4

Quote:
Originally Posted by PastorFranszwa View Post
Why You Should Not Wear a Crucifix
Question: What harm is there, we ask, in the worshipper surrounding her/himself with statues and pictures, if they help her/him to lift her/his heart to God? More important, how does God feel about the matter? Consider what his written Word, the Holy Bible, says.
Answer: But the very wording of the [second] commandment rules out such a limiting exposition.
Exodus 20:4 God says quite categorically, “you shall not make an idol in the form of anything” for use in worship. And Isaiah 30:22
And the Bible say that whatever else the second commandment teaches “there is no room for doubting that the commandment obliges us to disassociate our worship, both in public and in private, from all pictures and statues of Christ, no less than from pictures and statues of his Father.”
Why? Why is this prohibition in place and why is it so important that we heed it? The point is; DisObedience to His Commends. ( Satan must be enjoying this. ) God offers 5 reasons.
1. Images dishonour God, for you ( we ) obscure His glory.
2. The likeness of things in heaven Exodus 20:4 (Angels, sun, moon, stars), and in earth (people, animals, birds, insects), and in the sea (fishes, mammals, crustaceans), is precisely not a likeness of their Creator. “ John 4:24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth. ”A true image of God, is not to be found in all the world; and hence … his glory is defiled, and his truth corrupted by the lie, whenever he is set before our eyes in a visible form … Therefore, to devise any image of God is itself impious; because by this corruption his majesty is adulterated, and he is figured to be other than He is.” John 1:18 No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.… The heart of the objection to pictures and images is that they inevitably conceal most, if not all, of the truth about the personal nature and character of the divine Being whom they represent.
3. Images mislead us. They convey false ideas about God. The very inadequacy with which they represent him perverts our thoughts of him, and plants in our minds errors of all sorts about his character and will. … What does the Bible say about deceit? It is very clear in the Bible that deceit is an act that God hates. In order to follow the Lord’s path deceit cannot be in your heart and soul.
4. Religion is part of the blame . 2 Corinthians 11:13 For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ.
5. Just what is the nature of this deception? Notice Jesus’ specific warning: “Take heed that no man deceive you.
6. Ephesians 5:6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient.
These examples show how images will falsify the truth of God in the minds of men. Psychologically, it is certain that if you habitually focus your thoughts on an image or picture of the One to whom you are going to pray, you will come to think of Him, and pray to Him, as the image represents Him. Thus, you will in this sense “bow down” and “worship” your image; and to the extent to which the image fails to tell the truth about God, to that extent will you fail to worship God in truth. That is why God forbids you and me to make use of images and pictures in our worship.
It is the craft of Satan to make us think and speak of the Divine law as uncertain or unreasonable, and so to draw us to sin; it is our wisdom to keep up a firm belief of God's commands, and a high respect for it. Proverbs 28:9 If one turns away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer is an abomination. Please copy this and share it with your love ones and friends.
The reader is left to decide whether he believes God, or the ministers of any religion. When anyone turns a deaf ear to the word of God, here above, God will ‘give up’ on him and allow the devil to control your life. *
Dear PastorFranszwa,

The purpose of the commandment is so that people will not make an idol and worship it as the Israelites had done with the golden calf. Worship of idols is found only in the heart where only God can see.

God did not totally forbid the making of statutes. In Numbers 21:9, God told Moses to make a statute of a brass serpent so that anyone who looks upon it will be healed from the snake bites. When the Israelites looked upon the statute, they were healed, but the healing power didn't come from the statute. It came from God. The statute only points to the power of God.

However, when the Israelites started worshiping the statute of the brass serpent, God destroyed it (See 2 Kings 18:4). Only God can see what is in the heart of a person. The worshiping of idols can only be found in the hearts of men. It is not found in statutes and images.

Furthermore, an idol is not only a statute or an image, Anything that is put first before God becomes an idol. In other words, if a person loves money more than God, then money becomes the idol. If a person puts his family before God, then the family becomes the idol. Christ said that those who love mother, father, children, or spouse more than Him is not worthy to become His disciple. God comes first before anyone else. Not even your spouse should come first before God.

The reason Catholics have statutes and images in their church buildings is the same reason why Christians have images of their families in their home and wallet. A man who looks at a photo of his wife and touches that photo with loving hands is not in love with the photo. He is in love with who the photo represents. That is why he lovingly touches the photo of his wife and cherishes it. The statutes and images of the saints, Jesus, and Mary in the Catholic Church are statues and images of our families. All the saints are our brothers and sisters, and Mary is our Mother. We don't worship the statutes and images. We honor the person whom they represent God alone is the only one we worship.

Death does not separate us from our Christian brothers and sisters who have passed away. When a Christian dies, he/she is still a Christian and one with Christ. All Christians are one with Christ including those who are in Heaven. Death does not take away your standing as a Christian nor does it separate us from them because all who believe in Christ are one in Christ and with Him.

Also, I wear a crucifix as a reminder of Christ's love for me. He loved me so much that He died for me.

Last edited by Selene : 11-13-2018 at 08:15 PM.
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