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True2Ourselves Forums   > Community Topics > Christianity & Science  > Fine tuned universe

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  #1  
Old 07-13-2011, 03:34 PM
ByFaithAlone's Avatar
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Default Fine tuned universe

I was just wondering what people think about the fine tuned universe argument for God's existence... I'm personally a fan but I don't know how many other people appreciate it.

What are the common objectives people have heard against it?

If there are any atheists who wish to debate it, send me a PM.
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Old 07-13-2011, 05:25 PM
Giuliano
 
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Default Re: Fine tuned universe

Quote:
Originally Posted by ByFaithAlone View Post
I was just wondering what people think about the fine tuned universe argument for God's existence... I'm personally a fan but I don't know how many other people appreciate it.

What are the common objectives people have heard against it?
I have a question.

How do you first prove the existence of the universe?
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Old 07-13-2011, 05:40 PM
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Default Re: Fine tuned universe

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Originally Posted by Giuliano View Post
I have a question.

How do you first prove the existence of the universe?
What do you mean? You can observe the universe through radiation emitted throughout it or by telescope but if you don't accept scientific evidence as proof then I can't prove anything other than that I exist mentally. And that is only proof for myself. I guess that relates to Descartes and his ideas. However, I am going to assume that science is correct and the universe exists for the purpose of this discussion.
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Old 07-13-2011, 06:09 PM
Giuliano
 
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Default Re: Fine tuned universe

So you assume that your senses are correct.

I assume also that my senses are correct when they inform me I am an spiritual being and that God exists. Unless one perceives something, I doubt it can be proved using logic. If other people don't sense it, they don't.

How would you prove the existence of color to someone who was color-blind? He might believe you; but you couldn't prove it.
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Old 07-13-2011, 06:32 PM
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Default Re: Fine tuned universe

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Originally Posted by Giuliano View Post
So you assume that your senses are correct.

I assume also that my senses are correct when they inform me I am an spiritual being and that God exists. Unless one perceives something, I doubt it can be proved using logic. If other people don't sense it, they don't.

How would you prove the existence of color to someone who was color-blind? He might believe you; but you couldn't prove it.
Ok. I see what you're getting at. You are arguing that faith is properly basic. In other words if you have a connection with God that is all the proof you need.

However, the fine tuning argument remains unaddressed by your posts. The argument is intended to help atheists discover that God exists and then they can build a personal relationship with him. After that, they too will consider knowledge of God properly basic.
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Old 07-13-2011, 11:28 PM
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Default Re: Fine tuned universe

I'll assume that you're conversant with the anthropic principle. Rather than ask why the universe appears to have been made for us, why not consider that we're a result of the situation, not the reason for its existence?
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Old 07-14-2011, 04:03 AM
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Default Re: Fine tuned universe

Quote:
Originally Posted by ByFaithAlone View Post
I was just wondering what people think about the fine tuned universe argument for God's existence... I'm personally a fan but I don't know how many other people appreciate it.

What are the common objectives people have heard against it?

If there are any atheists who wish to debate it, send me a PM.
It could be tuned just that little bit better.
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  #8  
Old 07-14-2011, 07:14 AM
Giuliano
 
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Default Re: Fine tuned universe

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Originally Posted by ByFaithAlone View Post
Ok. I see what you're getting at. You are arguing that faith is properly basic. In other words if you have a connection with God that is all the proof you need.
Not faith, if you mean just imagining something is true. I'm saying it's can be sensed as real as the physical universe.
Quote:
However, the fine tuning argument remains unaddressed by your posts. The argument is intended to help atheists discover that God exists and then they can build a personal relationship with him. After that, they too will consider knowledge of God properly basic.
Atheists don't buy that argument. I didn't when I was an atheist. It's not a solid logical argument.
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  #9  
Old 07-14-2011, 08:47 AM
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Default Re: Fine tuned universe

My first question is why do you want a PM if we atheists want to chime in?

My second question is can you give us some examples to work with? I've heard a few, but we'd all be wasting our time if you don't agree with them...
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  #10  
Old 07-14-2011, 02:16 PM
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Default Re: Fine tuned universe

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Originally Posted by Brad View Post
I'll assume that you're conversant with the anthropic principle. Rather than ask why the universe appears to have been made for us, why not consider that we're a result of the situation, not the reason for its existence?
I am familiar with the anthropic principle.

Fine tuning in no way suggests that we are the reason the universe was created or that the universe was created for us (and by us I mean humankind). Rather, it indicates that a life giving universe (as we see it) is extremely unlikely without either (a) an intelligent designer or (b) an undesigned multiverse. Therefore, we, as a result, are also extremely unlikely.
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