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True2Ourselves Forums   > Community Topics > Christianity & Science  > The Morality of Cloning

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  #1  
Old 06-14-2008, 08:56 PM
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Default The Morality of Cloning

Cloning is a method of exactly duplicating a living thing. The controversy is novel given the relatively recent development of the concept and its implementing techniques. It appears that no credible evidence exists that a human being has been cloned yet. It is certain, however, that animals have been. Are we next?

The concept of cloning was first popularized some years ago in the movie "Boys from Brazil" which starred Gregory Peck. Peck played the infamous Doctor Josef Mengele - the so-called Angel of Death at Auschwitz. Dr. Mengele, of course, never conceived of cloning - an unimaginable idea during the 1940's. He was, however, obsessed with identical twins which is certainly akin to exact genetic duplication. Dr. Mengele, like his fellow SS physicians, was completely committed to the idea of racial improvement. It was, in fact, part and parcel of Nazi eugenics to create a master race. The ultimate objective was the German "Herrenvolk," who would dominate Europe and eventually the entire world.

Cloning, of course, is somewhat distinct from the broader concept of genetic engineering designed to improve the human race or at least a select segment. In the movie 'Boys from Brazil,' the Nazi doctor was genetically duplicating his idol, Adolf Hitler, through introducing a fertilized egg into the wombs of various "fit" women. The end result of these experiments would produce numerous Adolf Hitlers with the hope and expectation that at least one of them would resurrect the dream of a pan Germanic race that would rule the world.

Human clones are now certainly a very real possibility from a purely technological point of view. What possibilities that opens! Could we clone ourselves, for example, and then harvest organs from our own clone to be used in the event our own organs failed? Of course, that would be tough luck for the clone. He would die and we would live. The clone, under this view, becomes our ultimate slave. Our own cells could eventually be used to clone ourselves in perpetuity - generation after generation forever! An entire race could be created as genetic duplicates of the "fittest" among us, achieving in effect, what Nazi medicine could only dream of - a master race!

A clone who is "created" by technological means is what? Is the clone a "person" within the meaning of the law entitled to legal status and protection? Is the clone a "human being" made in the image and likeness of God? On June 12th 2008, a proposed Colorado state constitutional amendment was certified to appear on the November ballot. It would define a fertilized human egg as a "person" with all the implications that such would imply. The purely moral issue can be framed in different ways:
1. Is the biblical commandment "Increase and multiply" Genesis 1: 28 to be fulfilled only through traditional coitus or may we also propagate by other means? i.e. in vitro fertilization, surrogate mothers, cloning, etc.

2. Is duplicating a human being through cloning, nothing more than what nature itself does in producing identical twins?

3. What is the proper limit to genetic engineering designed to improve the race?
I can not begin to answer all these questions. On June 13th 2008, the Roman Catholic Bishops released a statement regarding embryonic stem cell research and touched upon the subject of cloning in the process. The Bishops contended that cloning to produce human embryos will "inevitably facilitate attempts to produce live-born cloned children." Human beings will become "commodities" and procreation will be reduced "to a mere manufacturing process." Might they be right?

The one thing that I personally can say with conviction is this: to impregnate, to fertilize, or to clone - by whatever means - never "creates" anything i.e. make something from nothing. God alone has that power! The question is what we can and should do to propagate or genetically improve ourselves. Is the only proper and moral way of propagating ourselves, for example, limited to sexual intercourse between one man and one women joined in holy matrimony which, in turn, results in offspring born and reared in a loving and stable environment?

My own answer to that last question is yes, but! Yes, the traditional family is the best! But, we live in an imperfect and flawed world. Might we then morally allow science to do what it reasonably can to assist in propagating and improving ourselves? I think so. Of course, this again begs the question - what is reasonable, balanced and morally correct? I am afraid, once again, I just don't know all the answers. Does anyone?

As in so many areas of the Christian life, we must ultimately listen to our consciences, be guided by our clergy, and always pray to the God that created all of us for help to get it right!
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Last edited by olsen : 06-16-2008 at 11:18 AM.
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Old 07-26-2008, 08:28 PM
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Default Re: The Morality of Cloning

I don't think cloning itself is a moral issue. Its just another means of reproduction. My problem comes in whether these reproduced beings would actually have a soul. Is there a time that God would simply infuse a soul into the "clone" or would the clone simply exist absent a soul and therefore not be able to have eternal life?
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Old 07-30-2008, 02:38 PM
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Default Re: The Morality of Cloning

God is the creator of life. The Word (Bible) says that he created man (and woman) and He breathed life into them. I do not believe that it is our place to try and recreate what God has already created. We were formed in our mother's womb ...that's the God way for man to create. Have you ever seen a baby being born? I can't even put it into words ... because it is a God thing. Truly a miracle of life.
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Old 07-30-2008, 03:01 PM
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Question Re: The Morality of Cloning

Quote:
Originally Posted by cheryl View Post
God is the creator of life. The Word (Bible) says that he created man (and woman) and He breathed life into them. I do not believe that it is our place to try and recreate what God has already created. We were formed in our mother's womb ...that's the God way for man to create. Have you ever seen a baby being born? I can't even put it into words ... because it is a God thing. Truly a miracle of life.
Cheryl, I agree with you. And I pray against the cloning
of human beings. If that comes, Christians will need a lot of help
coping with that.

But I can't agree with faith that does not allow some medical
assistance with our bodies and to save lives.
Surgical proceedures require extensive manipulation of
human tissues, as do medical proceedures.

Perhaps cloning is permissable to save lives by only using the genetic
sciences to reproduce body tissues and organs to replace those that
fail and incur death.

Surely God has allowed a great deal of knowledge about
genetic engineering to allow us to save lives, to enhance
the quality of life.

Like every other thing that people can use on this earth,
it is the motives and results that we must take great
caution to ensure.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I believe in Christianity as I believe that
the sun has risen:
not only because I see it,
but because by it I see everything else."
~ C. S. Lewis

Last edited by latreia : 08-05-2008 at 10:27 AM.
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Old 08-05-2008, 01:28 PM
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Default Re: The Morality of Cloning

I think that there has to be something worthwhile to gleen from the process of cloning, Otherwise, God would not allow it to happen. Probably the ability to save lives but not to create lives. The real problem comes when the motives aren't pure and man himself tries to play God.
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Old 01-21-2009, 08:23 PM
alphaomega3160
 
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Default Re: The Morality of Cloning

just so you know ; i am not saying anything for certain here;
but if ;
the image of god was the soul of adam
and eve got her soul from adam
and cain able and seth got their soul from them ;
there is a line in the movie jurrasic park that comes to mind
they were so interested in if they could
they never bothered with if they should
interesting that this should become of interest in the same time frame of 2012; with the mayan calendar and nostidumas talkings of aliens
so i ask; should we?
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Old 03-03-2009, 10:29 PM
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Default Re: The Morality of Cloning

If the technology wasn't made to be found it wouldn't have. The discovery of cloning is like the discovery of the light bulb. Part of life.
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Old 03-23-2009, 01:05 PM
BruceG
 
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Default Re: The Morality of Cloning

Quote:
Originally Posted by joedelsy View Post
If the technology wasn't made to be found it wouldn't have. The discovery of cloning is like the discovery of the light bulb. Part of life.
Or the atomic bomb..... part of death.
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Old 07-11-2010, 10:03 PM
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Default Re: The Morality of Cloning

Well, maybe some things should be clarified here.

1- "Identical twins" are not "akin" to "cloning". Why? Identical twins are the result of one fertilized egg cell dividing into two, before it starts its "cellular" division. thats totally different than cloning.

Cloning is the taking of a single cell itself from a human body and placing it in the liquid environment that will prompt it to divide and keep doing so, in order to produce a true "exact duplicate" of the person it was taken from.

2- Identical twins are only proven to be 95% or so identical on the exterior. There are tests proving internal structures, brain and psychological differences are clearly apparent. Some can experience everything of nearly all, to very little the identical things thier identical twin has/had.

With clones, its been proven all exterior and interior, along with brain and psychological traits are exactly identical to the other twin.

3rd- Since this thread had been posted, yes, there is proof Secular Scientists have "cloned" human cells. How far they developed them is up to whoever investigates that far to find out.

4th- While yes, that Scientist was obsessed with "identical twins", he also knew, at the stage of Germany Hitler had them in military statis, "cloning" was not fesible, as would take too long to raise up such a "race" of people.

Secondly- Hitler paid little attention to that, as listened to the psychics he relied upon for guidance with decisions, which is why the Jews were considered the human trash of the world at the time and he was going to rid the world of them, but also take the strongest, most intellectual and most healthy men and women of other races to produce this "master race". Breeding and interbreeding until he achieved that goal.

5th- Hitler had never authorized any "cloning" experiments to reproduce himself, because he believed, thru the taking over of the world, he would gain specific types of "religious artifacts", which could make him and his "race" divine/invincible.

NOTE: this can be checked out by the religions of several major Empires existing back in ancient times, even up thru Christ's time, which includes Christianity. Apparently some time after the times these artifacts were in use, stories were started later, which produced a whole number of intense searches for such to find them for those purposes. Even tho no documented proof proved these artifacts did such, with the exception of the "Ark of the Covenant" in God's word.

6st- If "clones" were grown to raise up organs to replace our failing ones, each clone could only be raised to a certain age, then put to sleep, all its organs removed and stored in a frozen state and bodies destroyed, or there'd be no room to keep all those "whole bodies" around. I doubt that would ever be considered acceptable, even tho what I described has supposedly been done by certain rich people to help allow them to live longer.

And wether true or not, supposedly particular rich people who had incurable diseases, had thier bodies put into frozen animation somewhere in the last 12 years or so, to keep them preserved, until such a day came, a cure was found for thier disease, so they could be thawed, revived and cured.

7th- No, a clone is not a true human life form, even if derived from a single cell of one. Why? Because it was not concieved and developed in the way God originally created- "pro-creation" to happen.

Every cell in the human body, contains all the same identical DNA as what created that person to start with. Taking a single cell from that body then, is only exactly replicating what already exists, it is not taking half of one parent and half of the other, to make one full unique set for a replicated yet still uniquely diverse offspring.

By the way, no one can predict, which particular egg cell containing what most prominant DNA will be fertilized by what particular sperm cell containing its specific dominant DNA when pregnancy happens naturally.

Even tho every egg cell and every sperm will contain all the essential basic parts of DNA from the parent for fertilization, only God knows which parts of each one's DNA will be prominant for what traits a child will eventually show.

And because God declares all men are of one blood, we can realize, the DNA traits carried over from generation to generation from Adam and Eve till now, count way over what we can fathom for info stored for what can be seen in an offspring. This is why, "out of the blue", certain traits or charactoristics never seen in the more recent past generations have appeared in some offspring.

8th- Would you want to even listen to the Vatican or Pope after he'd went to Islam and claimed the Roman Catholics are brothers and sisters in Christ to the Muslims? I wouldn't. The Muslim religion does not believe Jesus Christ was the Messiah, but only a man, a Prophet.

9th- The "Moral" side of this- Well, it comes down to what God declares- don't listen to the "vain babblings" of science. This is not saying not to listen to science at all, but only the "vain babblings", of which God made no distinction between Secular or Christian Science, only "Science" alone.

I've witnessed enough misconceptions coming from Christian Scientists/investigators, as much as secular ones. Nether side is totally free of misconceptions to a point.

10th- I beg to differ on how we should seek answers. I would never go by my concience for that part of it. I would be reading God's word and seeking his answers to such questions, if i deemed them important for my life to be live in God thru Christ. If such questions have no bearing on my present or near future life in God thru Christ, I don't bother asking about them.

God Bless!!
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  #10  
Old 09-11-2010, 12:07 AM
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Default Re: The Morality of Cloning

If we are created in His image, would then cloning be our expression of what God does?

The soul is eternal, so can not die.
If the soul can not die, then at what point does the soul enter into a body, which is liable to die?

Cloning being neither good nor evil except for the purpose in which it is used.

Last edited by Lemuel : 09-11-2010 at 12:11 AM.
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