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True2Ourselves Forums   > Community Topics > Christianity & Science  > Homosexuality not Choice says Scientists

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  #1  
Old 03-27-2009, 01:42 PM
antonio
 
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Default Homosexuality not Choice says Scientists

Research has identified several biological factors which govern the sexual orientation of the foetus. Genes, prenatal maternal hormones, and brain structure have been scientifically shown as determiners of heterosexual, homosexual or bisexual orientation.
One of the most recent opinions comes from the respected geneticist,and Christian, Francis Collins,the head of the Genome Project. The opinion was expressed in a response to a misrepresentation of his opinion on the NARTH website. NARTH is the major organization dedicated to demonstrating homosexuality is a choice. To establish that, they dedicate their effort to discounting all scientific and empirical evidence to the contrary. They passed off Dr. Collins remarks in his recent book as discounting the genetic source of Homosexuality. But Dr.Collins, himself clarified that NARTH misrepresented his opinion. Unfortunately, NARTH has undermined their own credibility. Here is what Dr Collins said in correcting NARTH:
"The evidence we have at present strongly supports the proposition that there are hereditary factors in male homosexuality... the observation that an identical twin of a male homosexual has approximately a 20% likelihood of also being gay points to this conclusion, since that is 10 times the population incidence.[/b] But the fact that the answer is not 100% also suggests that other factors besides DNA must be involved. That certainly doesn’t imply, however, that those other undefined factors are inherently alterable....No one has yet identified an actual gene that contributes to the hereditary component (the reports about a gene on the X chromosome from the 1990s have not held up), but it is likely that such genes will be found in the next few years."

Last edited by antonio : 03-27-2009 at 01:45 PM.
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  #2  
Old 03-27-2009, 02:45 PM
Mark's Avatar
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Default Re: Homosexuality not Choice says Scientists

Antonio,

Your obsession with this topic (homosexuality) is getting tiresome too many on this site. The "acting out" of the gay life style is clearly not moral in the context of main stream Christianity. We will tolerate opposing views on this site, however, it's starting to become an unhealthy obsession and we don't want to give our members the misunderstanding that we promote sin on this site.

In regards to your thread, for example... it tries to imply that since homosexuality is not a choice, it must be moral. That's completely ridiculous.

The idea of whether or not homosexuality is genetic means nothing in regards to morality... Married men, for example, can still be attracted to other women. This is a "desire" that is rooted in genetics. Does that somehow mean that the "acting out" of cheating on your wife is somehow moral (just because it's genetic)?

Other things that are "not choices"

1. Predisposition to violence
2. Alcoholism
3. Lust

The list goes on....

Just because it's two consistenting adults does not make it ok either... if that were the case, then incest should be moral... or polygamy.

Most (if not all) "natural desires" are probably grounded in genetics... a natural "desire of the flesh" does not make it morally ok....
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  #3  
Old 03-27-2009, 04:33 PM
Croref
 
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Default Re: Homosexuality not Choice says Scientists

Was the issue of homosexuality in Sodom and Gomorrah a genetic issue?
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  #4  
Old 03-27-2009, 07:40 PM
antonio
 
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Default Re: Homosexuality not Choice says Scientists

Dear Mark--you wrote
Quote:
Antonio,

Your obsession with this topic (homosexuality) is getting tiresome too many on this site. The "acting out" of the gay life style is clearly not moral in the context of main stream Christianity. We will tolerate opposing views on this site, however, it's starting to become an unhealthy obsession and we don't want to give our members the misunderstanding that we promote sin on this site.

In regards to your thread, for example... it tries to imply that since homosexuality is not a choice, it must be moral. That's completely ridiculous.

The idea of whether or not homosexuality is genetic means nothing in regards to morality... Married men, for example, can still be attracted to other women. This is a "desire" that is rooted in genetics. Does that somehow mean that the "acting out" of cheating on your wife is somehow moral (just because it's genetic)?Other things that are "not choices"
1. Predisposition to violence
2. Alcoholism
3. LustThe list goes on....Just because it's two consistenting adults does not make it ok either... if that were the case, then incest should be moral... or polygamy.Most (if not all) "natural desires" are probably grounded in genetics... a natural "desire of the flesh" does not make it morally ok....
I am not obsessed with anything except Equality, love for all humans and truth. Apparently, these principles upset you when they clash with your private collection of opinions.
As for those opinions, your in tall cotton here with a few fundamentalists but millions of Christians do not agree with you. Minimally, most agree that the matter is one for God, not our judgment.
I am a christian. The vast majority of my posts were intended to give balance to an overwhelming opinion of unlovingness-- that homosexuality is satanic and that homosexuals should be treated unequally. In fact, the thread you just recently threatened to close contains numerous posts by "Rob" that homosexuals should be treated unequally because they don't procreate. Apparently you agree with this absurd conclusion. "rob" challenged me that there is no scientific basis that homosexuality has a genetic link. I responded to his challenge with this post, citing Dr Collins. Strange that bizarre, irrational, hateful and primitive opinions thrive under your supervision but a scientifically sound one, IN RESPONSE is "obsessive" and "tiresome".
In this post, as in most, I cite a respected and valid source. For example, in this post, Francis Collins, a christian and one of the foremost geneticists of our time. But you don't agree with him so you threaten to shut down the thread.
You have complained about me since I arrived but you like most, have never pointed anything out I have said that denigrates, mocks or challenges God or Jesus. All you can come up with is that I'm "obsessed" and "tiresome" Sorry if for you, Jesus command to love all humans, and US principles of Equality, are tiresome and reflective of "obsession." Could it be you have the cart before the horse--have you ever considered, using your influence as the Administrator, to insist at a minimum that posters respect and promote Jesus' command to love everyone or to insist that the principles of equality, justice and fairness--principles America be observed"

You are quick to criticize me for what--standing up for equality, setting forth respected scientific opinion? However, I never see you protest or warn anyone for the attacks that have been leveled against me as being satanic , disgusting and sinful. As the administrator, is it ok with you that my simply claiming that God loves gay people and that they should be treated equally is enough to justify members to verbally "stone" me.

What I have done here is stand up for American principles of justice and equality. Apparently, you are blind to the connection between love of all humans as taught by Jesus and Equality as a principle of America.
Are you trying to intimidate me? I will try to be more patient, more polite, not so hair triggered but I will not stop challenging people to love their neighbor and enemies, as themselves (I don't know where Gay people fit in your opinions, neighbors or enemies) and to unrelentingly advocate for equality for all human citizens of this country.
Would you tell me what have I done? Have I promoted a bad lifestyle, I am married, work hard, pay a lot of taxes, have been faithful to my wife, never committed adultery,never did an abortion, have a child which is mine but saved from abortion,my wife and child(yes, a four year old) and i volunteer in a free clinic and a food bank. Is my offense that I believe literally in the command by Jesus to love and insist on using that command as the lens for viewing everything--everything I do as well as anyone else. Or, is it that I believe literally in principles of America. You are probably right I am obsessive and for some, tiresome. but if these are reason for suspending me, then suspend me.
antonio
“My creed’s equality!”
Born Again American
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  #5  
Old 03-27-2009, 08:23 PM
Mark's Avatar
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Default Re: Homosexuality not Choice says Scientists

Antonio,

The truth remains simple: Love the sinner but hate the sin. The denominations seen on the home page of our website easily make up 90% of the Christian world - every one of those denominations is in agreement that the "acting out" of homosexuality is a sin... you simply aren't going to change that teaching with any of your theories.

*I believe there are renegade Churches that teach homosexuality is ok - there are Churches that teach all kinds of things.


Quote:
I am a christian. The vast majority of my posts were intended to give balance to an overwhelming opinion of unlovingness-- that homosexuality is satanic and that homosexuals should be treated unequally.
If you were not a homosexual, you would not be all over this topic. The truth is you struggle with it deep inside. You're here in a vain attempt to justify the sin.

No one should be "bashing gays" and such - as I said, love sinner but hate the sin.


Quote:
In fact, the thread you just recently threatened to close contains numerous posts by "Rob" that homosexuals should be treated unequally because they don't procreate. Apparently you agree with this absurd conclusion.

There are straight couples that cannot procreate - so I don't see how that argument holds up. Christians should always shun the sin (but love the sinner).

Antonio, here's some questions you will probably want to avoid:

1. Do you think incest is ok? Let's say it's two consenting adults... should we "practice equality" by teaching that incest is ok in schools? Or, should we shun the sin but love the sinner?

2. What about polygamy between consenting adults? Should this also be tolerated? Each adult, after all, has a "natural desire" to be with multiple partners. God "made them that way" - so should we accept them for who they are? Or, should we love them - but disagree with their lifestyle?

3. What about a 50 year old man wanting to sleep with a minor? The man may have a "natural desire" to do this (it could be genetic)... should we allow it?

4. What if a person has a predisposition to violence based on genetic markers... God "made him that way" - so should his violence be tolerated?

There are countless other examples....


Homosexuality is simply a "desire of the flesh" ... it does not matter if it is genetic or not. God gives us all burdens that we are to overcome for His glory.

No Christian should "hate" you or anything like that... however, they should not give in to their own conscience. And Christianity should not (can not) decide to make the "acting out" of homosexuality "ok" just so a certain group of people feel better about themselves and their lifestyle.
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  #6  
Old 03-27-2009, 09:27 PM
antonio
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Homosexuality not Choice says Scientists


Quote:
The truth remains simple: Love the sinner but hate the sin.
Wow, I never thought you'd resort to that. God doesn't hate anything. God is all love. Humans hate. When you say you love the sinner, what is it you love about them--their knee, little finger? The heart and soul and mind are what make up the person. Can you hate the pie but love the fruit in side? Can you hate the design but love the car?
Quote:
The denominations seen on the home page of our website easily make up 90% of the Christian world - every one of those denominations is in agreement that the "acting out" of homosexuality is a sin... you simply aren't going to change that teaching with any of your theories.
I am not doing this to change them, I am doing it because preaching love is my desire and my obligation. I have to do what God tells me. You and your friends can do what you want.

Quote:
*I believe there are renegade Churches that teach homosexuality is ok - there are Churches that teach all kinds of things.
I notice that in Barcelona, and London and in Paris, and in Berkeley California and San Francisco, there are RC churches that welcome homosexuals. If they didn't there'd be no one there. Are they renegades. Is the Anglican church a renegade? Is the United Church of Christ a renegade? Are the Quakers renegades?



Quote:
Antonio, here's some questions you will probably want to avoid:

1. Do you think incest is ok? Let's say it's two consenting adults... should we "practice equality" by teaching that incest is ok in schools? Or, should we shun the sin but love the sinner?

2. What about polygamy between consenting adults? Should this also be tolerated? Each adult, after all, has a "natural desire" to be with multiple partners. God "made them that way" - so should we accept them for who they are? Or, should we love them - but disagree with their lifestyle?

3. What about a 50 year old man wanting to sleep with a minor? The man may have a "natural desire" to do this (it could be genetic)... should we allow it?

4. What if a person has a predisposition to violence based on genetic markers... God "made him that way" - so should his violence be tolerated?

There are countless other examples...
.
I have answered these questions before. For me, the test isn't the action but what's in the heart--Everything has to be judged by whether it demonstrates the love of others as Jesus taught with the example of the Samaritan. Behavior which exploits, manipulates, deceives, debases, degrades, cheats, hurts in any way etc, another person is unloving and we have an obligation to avoid it. Properly married, hetersexual husbands commit more than a million assaults on wives and children every year. Thousands of them are killed and maimed. Within your father's lifetime that was permitted in most states in the US and is still permitted in many countries. Love can happen outside of marriage and hate can happen inside marriage. Wives, who manipulate or use or deceive their husbands or do subtle things to turn the children against him violate the commandment of love also. The world is filled with unloving behavior but you focus on a small group who are trying to establish loving relationships with some legitimacy in those relationships. You should be ashamed of yourself being such a bully. There is a world out there to feed and clothe and comfort and read to, and guide and you spend your effort attacking . I can't tell you how achingly sad it is for me to see a fellow Catholic behave this way. We are the true church but we are going through a period when there are no Berrigan brothers, no Mother Theresas no Pope John XX111s .

Quote:
Homosexuality is simply a "desire of the flesh" ... it does not matter if it is genetic or not. God gives us all burdens that we are to overcome for His glory.No Christian should "hate" you or anything like that... however, they should not give in to their own conscience. And Christianity should not (can not) decide to make the "acting out" of homosexuality "ok" just so a certain group of people feel better about themselves and their lifestyle.
No one wants or needs your OK or your permission, forgiveness, love, your judgment or your blessing--you are not God. It is only God's love we want. You are nothing but the same poor sinner that I an everyone else is. I am confident from what is is written within me, that God loves us all, that God never stops loving any of us. The only thing that separates us from Him, is us
Are you separating yourself from God by your unloving concern for specks in other eyes and ignoring logs and planks within your own?

Last edited by antonio : 03-27-2009 at 09:53 PM.
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  #7  
Old 03-27-2009, 09:48 PM
Mark's Avatar
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Default Re: Homosexuality not Choice says Scientists

There's a difference between "tolerating" a sinner and changing the doctrines of the faith so that being gay (specifically, "acting out") is ok. I believe 100% that our faith teaches that the "acting out" of the homosexual lifestyle is a sin. This is what I believe - would you really respect me more if I lied to you and told you something different? That would not be honest to you or myself.

*And, as predicted, you avoided answering my 4 questions directly... because they shine a light into a place you don't want to go. If you "ok" homosexuality, then logically, you must "ok" the other perversions (and the flaw in your reasoning is revealed).
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  #8  
Old 03-27-2009, 10:34 PM
PentecostalEvangelist
 
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Default Re: Homosexuality not Choice says Scientists

Quote:
Originally Posted by antonio View Post
Research has identified several biological factors which govern the sexual orientation of the foetus. Genes, prenatal maternal hormones, and brain structure have been scientifically shown as determiners of heterosexual, homosexual or bisexual orientation.
One of the most recent OPINIONS comes from the respected geneticist,and Christian, Francis Collins,the head of the Genome Project. The OPINION was expressed in a response to a misrepresentation of his OPINION on the NARTH website.

NARTH is the major organization dedicated to demonstrating homosexuality is a choice.

To establish that, they dedicate their effort to discounting all scientific and empirical evidence to the contrary.

They passed off Dr. Collins remarks in his recent book as discounting the genetic source of Homosexuality.

But Dr.Collins, himself clarified that NARTH misrepresented his opinion. Unfortunately, NARTH has undermined their own credibility. Here is what Dr Collins said in correcting NARTH:

"The evidence we have at present strongly supports the proposition that there are hereditary factors in male homosexuality... the observation that an identical twin of a male homosexual has approximately a 20% likelihood of also being gay points to this conclusion, since that is 10 times the population incidence.[/b] But the fact that the answer is not 100% also suggests that other factors besides DNA must be involved. That certainly doesn’t imply, however, that those other undefined factors are inherently alterable....No one has yet identified an actual gene that contributes to the hereditary component (the reports about a gene on the X chromosome from the 1990s have not held up), but it is likely that such genes will be found in the next few years."
Antonio: the KEY word in your assumption that homosexuality is an acceptable act is the word ’OPINION’.

Opinion: A belief, or self formed ’IDEA’ that is (by choice) stronger than impression and less strong than positive knowledge, or in layman’s terms, something one strongly wishes to BE fact, that is (in a much stronger way) certainly NOT fact.

It is an act pf pretending, when one wills in his or her own mind to make believe something that they wish to BE true is in fact, that which IS undeniably false, an attempt to give false credibility to that which is NOT credible (TRUE).

My question MUST be this: IS Dr. Francis Collins a practicing homosexual himself, OR is he purposefully defending the homosexual lifestyle of someone (close to him) perhaps a family member, a son or a daughter or other relative, or friend.

Regardless of any of the answers to either of these questions the true and undeniable AND unchanging fact is THIS Antonio: Homosexuality is an abomination in the sight of God, and it is completely unacceptable!

It was when Moses wrote Leviticus chapter 18 verse 22: Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination (perverted and disgusting).

It was STILL an act that was NOT acceptable in the sight of god when the Apostle Paul wrote Romans chapter 1 verses 24-28: Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

Homosexuality IS a sin, and those who practice homosexuality do so by choice, it is NOT a disease of the mind, and God certainly did NOT create anyone to BE homosexual, it is an act of choice committed by individuals who lust after those of the same sex in a perverted and unnatural way.

NO homosexual was or ever is forced into the lifestyle they have chosen to live.
And the eventual result that awaits every homosexual who enters into eternity who has NOT repented will be that that individual will spend eternity in hell (Revelation 21:8) and there will certainly NEVER be any escape from hells horrible torments once that person has arrived in that terrible place.

Repent does NOT mean that one apologizes for their sins, God knows one is sorry when they come to him confessing their sin and asking for his forgiveness, the responsibility of the one who is commanded to repent is to STOP doing that sin which has been confessed which he/she has asked God to forgive them of.

Throughout these forums Antonio you have made attempt after attempt to justify that your homosexual lifestyle is an acceptable act, and you have repeatedly tried to get others to give you that ‘pat on the back’ and say to you well sure Antonio, God doesn’t have a problem with you being a homosexual.

You desperately want anyone who will to tell you that homosexuality is NOT a sin and you can go on being a homosexual and never be held accountable by God for your sins.

But the real truth is: homosexuality is NOT an acceptable act, it is a SIN that is completely disapproved by God, and in everyway unacceptable in the sight of God, no practicing homosexual can be, or is a Christian, their continual practice of homosexuality is a perverted slap in the face of Jesus Christ, and is the absolute worst way a highly disgusting insult to the blood that Jesus shed on Calvary’s cross where he bled to death to purchase their redemption.

Jesus did not bleed and die on the cross to give homosexuals the freedom to go on sinning as practicing homosexuals, he died to set you ( and every other homosexual) free Antonio, from the perversion of homosexuality.

These truths have been declared to you over, and over again Antonio, but YOU have to choose whether you will accept GODS word, or reject GODS word, you fight against the truth but you will never win your struggle against God, you claim to be a ‘Follower’ of Jesus, but in truth you are ONLY that a follower not one who has fully embraced and accepted the truth of Gods word.

You do not wish to accept what Gods word has to say about your homosexuality, you only wish to make Gods word conform to your lustful desires to continue practicing the perversion you practice.

That will never happen.

I continue to pray fervently for you Antonio.

Michael Loudermilk
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  #9  
Old 03-27-2009, 10:54 PM
Amadeus's Avatar
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Default Re: Homosexuality not Choice says Scientists

All of us have weaknesses whether they be genetic or other doesn't matter in the final judgmnent of God. Each of us must do whatever we can to please God according to His rules and His standards. He has given us I believe, at least, two things to help us in first identifying potential problems and then in overcoming them when identified.

The first one is a written book people call the Bible. It is presented now in different versions and languages, but to me there is no doubt that all that we need from God can be found within it pages. Which version or translation is another question that I will not pursue here and now.

The second thing that God gave us makes it possible for us to encounter the Truth that the Book does contain. This is God's Spirit within us.

Do these two things ever come into conflict with the findings of man's logic and science? According to some men they do, but only God has the final say on that.

There are as we know dozens of different denominations in existence today. I believe that all of them miss God's mark in some measure, but the basis for most any apparent or actual Christian's decisions will likely be his own beliefs whether they are supported by Bible readings and/or studies and/or interactions with God's Spirit and/or some other things.

Yes, each must follow his own heart based on his own observations and/or beliefs, but he must also expect God to search that heart and weigh the results and make His most final decision based on that weighing.

I hate to take sides here because I believe I see some right on both sides. All I can do is present my own case, but my case does not necessarily apply to yours, because I am not in your shoes and you are not in mine.

I believe that for me homosexual activity would be a sin because of my own knowledge and what God has shown me through His Spirit and His Word. To presume that everyone else who is serving God in any measure is on the same page or at the same level that I am would indeed be presumptious on my part. Each of us must examine himself and God's Word in careful and continuous prayer. One person's decision today will not necessarily be equal to the same person's decision tomorrow. God will judge each of us on where we are at the end of our course. If we are His in any measure then to please God we should be moving closer to Him daily.

Yes, I can take all of the facts as I know them for a given person and then apply my knowledge of God's Word to draw a conclusion, but I believe that in doing so when it is not my job, would be an error on my part.

I will say that those responsible for this forum may be required to make similar judgments, not in the place of God, but for what they believe to be in the best interests of the forum. I might not agree with them, but they are not mine to make. If asked I might give my opinion, but that is all that it would be. Theirs would be the responsibility!
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  #10  
Old 03-27-2009, 11:04 PM
antonio
 
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Default Re: Homosexuality not Choice says Scientists

Dear PE, the old PE is taking over again.
Quote:
Opinion: A belief, or self formed ’IDEA’ that is (by choice) stronger than impression and less strong than positive knowledge, or in layman’s terms, something one strongly wishes to BE fact, that is (in a much stronger way) certainly NOT fact.

It is an act pf pretending, when one wills in his or her own mind to make believe something that they wish to BE true is in fact, that which IS undeniably false, an attempt to give false credibility to that which is NOT credible (TRUE).

My question MUST be this: IS Dr. Francis Collins a practicing homosexual himself, OR is he purposefully defending the homosexual lifestyle of someone (close to him) perhaps a family member, a son or a daughter or other relative, or friend.
What is written here is the result of scientific work performed by hundreds of people over a period of years and it continues. Everything about us, is determined by our genes that are then worked on by the environment both in the womb and out of the womb. It's called cause and effect.
If you can't accept that, then I think it's you who has the problem ignoring truth and creating your own reality.
Oh, And I haven't the slightest idea about Collins. What is the relevance?
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