True2Ourselves
Already a member? login
Divider
Divider
Divider
Divider
Divider
Divider
Divider
Divider
Divider
Divider
Divider
Divider
  
+
Register FAQ A-Z directory Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

True2Ourselves Forums   > Community Topics > Christianity & Science  > What Evidence Do We Need?

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 12-19-2016, 01:16 PM
Mark's Avatar
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 3,713
Default What Evidence Do We Need?

I've watched a lot of videos on the internet where an atheist will debate a believer. Many times, both will use science and logic to prove and/or disprove the existence of God.

However, according to scripture, faith is the only way to please God. In fact, without faith it is "impossible" to please God! Therefore, I can make the following conclusions.

1. God will never leave "scientific proof" of His existence... if He did, we would no longer need faith. Therefore, God will always leave room for doubt. Whether we're talking about miracles, scientific evidence that correlates with scripture, etc. There will always be another way to look at the evidence.

2. Action is an outward sign of faith and we should expect to be called to action, through faith, even when everything doesn't make sense.

With that said, to the unbeliever, no amount of evidence or testimony regarding God will make them believe. It doesn't matter how many people witness a miracle, if a person has no faith, they will not believe.

So I believe the lesson to take away from this is simple: People that claim that science can prove there is a God are wrong (and the opposite is true). That said, I believe we can use logic/reason to conclude that it is more likely that there is a God than no God.

Anyone disagree?
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 12-19-2016, 01:47 PM
ElpidioLGagolinan's Avatar
Knight of the Forum
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 6,133
Default Re: What Evidence Do We Need?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark View Post
I've watched a lot of videos on the internet where an atheist will debate a believer. Many times, both will use science and logic to prove and/or disprove the existence of God.

However, according to scripture, faith is the only way to please God. In fact, without faith it is "impossible" to please God! Therefore, I can make the following conclusions.

1. God will never leave "scientific proof" of His existence... if He did, we would no longer need faith. Therefore, God will always leave room for doubt. Whether we're talking about miracles, scientific evidence that correlates with scripture, etc. There will always be another way to look at the evidence.

2. Action is an outward sign of faith and we should expect to be called to action, through faith, even when everything doesn't make sense.

With that said, to the unbeliever, no amount of evidence or testimony regarding God will make them believe. It doesn't matter how many people witness a miracle, if a person has no faith, they will not believe.

So I believe the lesson to take away from this is simple: People that claim that science can prove there is a God are wrong (and the opposite is true). That said, I believe we can use logic/reason to conclude that it is more likely that there is a God than no God.

Anyone disagree?
Looks like your conditions are broad. Believing there is God or not seems to be individual choice. In a family, people could have different belief. The two thieves on the cross with Jesus appeared to have witnessed the same Jesus but one believed and the other did not.

But those who really want to know there is a God, will find Him. But those who do not want to believe, is hard to convince no matter what.

But there are cases where God reveals Himself to a person or persons.

ped
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 12-19-2016, 09:35 PM
Amadeus's Avatar
Knight of the Forum
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 8,171
Default Re: What Evidence Do We Need?

As Mark already wrote, faith, is the way to please God. But, that is only where we start. If we travel on with God there will be knowledge which God will give to those who walk the pathway of faith. The apostle Paul wrote

"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God." Heb 12:2

These words I believe (by faith now) state that faith will come to an end, but to ever attain that end, we must start with and walk in faith toward God.

I do not believe that Jesus walked by faith. He rather knew God's plan and so may we also:

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." I John 3:2
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 12-20-2016, 05:01 AM
Suspended for Review
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,856
Default Re: What Evidence Do We Need?

The fact that everything exists and we are here proves there is God.
Defining God is the difficulty.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 12-20-2016, 10:24 AM
Mark's Avatar
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 3,713
Default Re: What Evidence Do We Need?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CinderAsh View Post
The fact that everything exists and we are here proves there is God.
Defining God is the difficulty.
I'd say that's 99% accurate. At least how I see things. One could say we are some type of science experiment... living inside a 13 year old's alien computer. And we are a conscious byproduct of alien programming. In that case, the "god" would be aliens. So you would be correct - there is a God (or gods)... just hard to define.

However, an atheist would argue the Multiple Universe Theory... which they believe can remove god totally from the picture. However, I still think it would require a God because even in a multiverse model, if any Universe has a humble expansion greater than 1, then it had a beginning (according to the Borde, Guth, and Vilenkin theory). It seems hard to get past the whole "in the beginning" problem. Of course, all these theories basically exist in "make believe land" because they can never be tested or proven. In short, it's so obvious our Universe has incredible order (which implies a Creator) that certain people like to invoke a "multi verse theory" in attempts to explain the order away and bury it in statistics.

It's all nonsense. The best explanation remains the same. There is a Creator and He created the Universe.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 12-20-2016, 02:37 PM
Suspended for Review
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,673
Default Re: What Evidence Do We Need?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark View Post
The best explanation remains the same. There is a Creator and He created the Universe.
How do you decide which Creator?
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 12-20-2016, 03:04 PM
Mark's Avatar
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 3,713
Default Re: What Evidence Do We Need?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gray View Post
How do you decide which Creator?
Creator (C) = 1/8T + MV - B(3.7 + 9T)...

Or a more serious answer... there are two aspects to this question. The first deals with the existence of a Creator. Through reason, you can get to this on your own... if not, I'd be glad to help you. Again, you can never have "scientific proof," however, we can come close enough where we can make a reasonable "leap of faith" and conclude something other than the Universe caused the Universe... even most atheist scientists believe this (whether they realize it or not)... they put their faith in an unprovable multiverse (as opposed to an unprovable God). *Not sure if "unprovable" is a word? Both of these concepts are outside of our Universe - - the question is which is more reasonable.

In any case, the second part of the question, which you bring up, is much more complicated and can take a life time to figure out. And some people never get it right. However, I believe if you honestly pursue God, He will slowly guide you.. step by step until you're a Catholic . Obviously, for different people, the journey is different so I can only speak for myself.

That said, if you witnessed the miracles of Christ during the time He was on Earth (raising the dead and such), then it's probably safe to say that even you would believe (although Thomas doubted even after all that). However, it should be noted that the more that is given to a person, the more is expected... that's why God might withhold miracles and revelations from people. Much suffering can come with knowledge... so be grateful that you have not witnessed Divine Miracles - if you're not ready and you fall back into sin after receiving Divine knowledge, it can be much more dangerous for your soul ("blessed are those that believe without seeing"). Therefore, perhaps God is protecting you to some extent by keeping you in the dark about His existence. He may need more "faith" from you before you get 'evidence' from Him.

Many saints that were close to God and performed miracles also suffered greatly. *And many of the early followers of Christ were put to death in awful ways.

Last edited by Mark : 12-20-2016 at 03:08 PM.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 12-20-2016, 03:16 PM
Mark's Avatar
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 3,713
Default Re: What Evidence Do We Need?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gray View Post
How do you decide which Creator?
Now for a short answer that pertains to me personally. It was a rather long process. A lot of praying... realizing that praying was increasing my wisdom that ultimately helped my life.

Like I said in other posts, ultimately what sealed the deal for me was praying the Rosary and witnessing miracles. No other faith on the planet teaches we should pray the rosary, therefore, if I pray the Rosary and witness real miracles (and come closer to God), then that's enough for me. Some people don't need as much as I needed - God gave me a lot because I have a very skeptical mind and it required a lot for me to accept the faith. However, I only received what I needed AFTER a dished out A LOT of faith via action and prayer.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 12-20-2016, 04:11 PM
Lookinforacity's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,797
Default Re: What Evidence Do We Need?

First you would have to concede the Universe we live in, as we know it to be is finite.

The expanse of what there is outside of our Universe is so great, it cannot be fathomed how extensive it really is.

If there is an end then we live in a vacuum, inside of a huge bubble.

If it is what God Created, then there is no end, on the other hand, if it was the Universe creating itself, then it does have an end because it only had what it consisted of to begin with, and can go no further than itself, it is unable to conceive of anything else, because it cannot create, because it is only matter it can only separate into smaller and smaller pieces of itself, it only imploded upon itself and then exploded, expanding into the Void of Space.

It has been said there is an order to it all, which denotes an intelligent Creator, I call it the Divine Design, even within any given species there is diversity, each species does not overlap into another species territory of life, there might be twenty different types of birds, but they all do not eat the same food or live within the same climate, thus all of these differing birds survive, they don't even mate with each other, even when a certain sub division of the species is going extinct, is that all by chance, or by Design?

Look at the Sea Shore, it does not go past its designated borders, every Continent has a Shoreline, and even though at time the Sea does go past its border, it always returns to it's designated place, the Fukushima Tsunami in Japan, at this time the Sea is where it was before. ...WHY?

We Believe in a Creator by FAITH, not by reason or sight, He cannot be proven, except to the individual heart, which has the Faith to Believe.



JIM
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 12-20-2016, 06:27 PM
Mark's Avatar
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 3,713
Default Re: What Evidence Do We Need?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lookinforacity View Post
We Believe in a Creator by FAITH, not by reason or sight, He cannot be proven, except to the individual heart, which has the Faith to Believe.
Not sure I agree completely with your last point here. I do agree the Creator can not be proven via Scientific Method. Otherwise, there would be no need for faith. However, I do think we can "believe" in a Creator based on reason/logic. In other words, we observe the order in the Universe and then use our reasoning to conclude there was a Creator.

That said, finding the Christian Creator takes more faith and more time....
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Trinity Evidence All False Squeaky Theology 7 10-22-2014 10:23 PM
Evidence Epicurus General Discussions 21 10-11-2014 12:43 PM
Evidence Called2Freedom Theology 41 02-01-2010 08:42 AM
Criteria for evidence of God Mikronman Theology 81 02-01-2009 03:01 PM
Evidence of the Enemy... EphesiansWarrior General Discussions 5 01-31-2009 10:26 AM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:13 AM.


true2ourselves
 
 
 

Flashcoms

You need to upgrade your Flash Player.

Version 8 or higher is required.

download from http://www.adobe.com/go/getflashplayer

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29