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True2Ourselves Forums   > Community Topics > Christianity & Politics  > States who state, WORTHY

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  #31  
Old 06-15-2019, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by pryz View Post
If I’m correct here, that unless someone is Catholic, pretty much all incidental Christian dialog that may occur by the non-affiliated are very much endured by Catholics with the possible exception of spot contribution of commentary?
"Endured"? Do you mean, we put up with it but don't like it? No, not at all. I would not say that. In fact, all Christians have far more in common than not. I personally tend to prefer debate over boring chat, so I will often look for a point of disagreement, not to be mean spirited, but rather to have a fun debate. But generally, we all share more than we disagree about I would say. Look at this old post of mine:

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Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader View Post
.........I am concerned with the later assertion, that we label all outsiders as "false"......
.....I wish to lay to rest once and for all this mistaken perception. I will quote straight from THE Catechism of the Catholic Church, from the section which deals with the "Reformation". Please note the areas that I have bolded and underlined:


Wounds to unity


817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame." The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ's Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism - do not occur without human sin:
Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.
818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth" are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements." Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation.................



Now, I hope you take note of the bolded line, "many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church". Does this sound like a Church that labels all outsiders as false? It says that Christ's spirit uses other churches "as means of salvation". Does that sound like a Church that labels all outsiders as false?

I stand with the Catechism, and join in its proclamation. I, like the Catholic Church, accept other Christians with respect and affection as brothers. At the same time, I give a cautionary word to the person who is posting these things: It is wrong, and un-Christian in the extreme, to spread false misleading information about a billion of your brothers & sisters, to say we are "mind-controlled" and that we view all outsiders as false groups. Now, I can't speak for God, but I am going to guess that he does not care for that too much: I know that I don't.


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Originally Posted by pryz View Post
If also to guess, I would assume the Lutheran’s self-distinguished claim to catholic (small-c) is an aberration of the Catholic’s use, meaning, it is the Catholic Church that is the broad, universal Church? Is that correct?
Oh no, not at all. I often have called myself small "o" orthodox because I believe I adhere to orthodox teaching, but I am not a member of the Big O Orthodox Churches.

I know whaty small c means, and I accept it. So does the Church, officially. Now, I do bel;ieve that the Catholic Pope and Bishops are the true successors ofm the apostles and only they carry the mandate that Christ once gave to the apostles, but that has nothing to do with the fact that I recognioze you as a full Christian, a brother in Christ.

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Amounts to my direction of thought, does exclusivity affect such things? But above that, if logical reasoning did interfere with former Catholic teachings, would it have the support from her needed for implementation?
Logic is in the eye of the beholder. It is easy for man to talk himself into or out of all sorts of stuff, and it may make sense at the time. I will admit that sometimes I have wrestled withmy opinion verses Catholic dogma. But then I remember, I am but a man, and God established his Church and gave the Holy Spirit to guide it into all Truth. I have seen the scriptures that attest to this, so I must put aside my small narrow human understanding and accept what is taught. I am, after all, the disciple, not the apostle. This is where I have been led. I will not speak ill of someone who does not see things my way simply because they don't see things my way.
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Last edited by CatholicCrusader : 06-15-2019 at 08:27 PM.
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  #32  
Old 06-15-2019, 08:18 PM
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Default Re: States who state, WORTHY

Okay, maybe not all think on that broader plane of possibilities, yet here we are, with a revision breathing down history’s neck to liken itself to a new companion on the issue, new blood that did hope for, that did stay ready for, to welcome all who champions the abolition of CP.

So to clear up that question whether or not the infallibility issue was resolved, if logic does find traction under such as the #2267 revision,

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Originally Posted by pryz View Post
If logical reasoning did interfere with former Catholic teachings, would the measure still have the support from her needed for the implementation of policy change?
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  #33  
Old 06-15-2019, 08:31 PM
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Default Re: States who state, WORTHY

Its so hard to answer that, for you and I just approach the issue of "obedience" and "authority" differently. My answer works for me but probably not for you.

My logic tells me that the death penalty is okay, but my faith tells me that Jesus gave Peter and the Popes the mission to tend his sheep (John 21:17) and I will defer to them.

If I were to meet Saint Peter himself, and we differed upon the meaning of one of Christ's teachings, would I argue with the man, or would I heed his guidance? I would heed his guidance since that is his job. He is the apostle, and I am but a disciple.

That's my approach. Yours is different. I get it. I am not sure what else to say
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  #34  
Old 06-24-2020, 09:43 PM
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Default Re: States who state, WORTHY

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Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader View Post
Its so hard to answer that, for you and I just approach the issue of "obedience" and "authority" differently. My answer works for me but probably not for you.

My logic tells me that the death penalty is okay, but my faith tells me that Jesus gave Peter and the Popes the mission to tend his sheep (John 21:17) and I will defer to them.

If I were to meet Saint Peter himself, and we differed upon the meaning of one of Christ's teachings, would I argue with the man, or would I heed his guidance? I would heed his guidance since that is his job. He is the apostle, and I am but a disciple.

That's my approach. Yours is different. I get it. I am not sure what else to say
How about the whole of God’s redemptive work? If Christians once again turn to invigorate the very presence of Capitol Punishment, then they have fallen from the grace that insures that work. Another cog in the list of works of faith.
.
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  #35  
Old 06-25-2020, 07:33 AM
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Default Re: States who state, WORTHY

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How about the whole of God’s redemptive work? If Christians once again turn to invigorate the very presence of Capitol Punishment, then they have fallen from the grace that insures that work. Another cog in the list of works of faith.
That is a little too much for me. I cannot say that someone has fallen from God's grace just because they promote the death penalty. There is a valid Biblical argument to made for the death penalty and I am sure that good Christians make it in good faith.

As I said, I just approach the issue of "obedience" and "authority" differently. It is a fine example of the chasm between you and me on the larger topic of authority. I defer to the authority Christ established, and you defer to you personal interpretation.

I said: If I were to meet Saint Peter himself, and we differed upon the meaning of one of Christ's teachings, would I argue with the man, or would I heed his guidance? I would heed his guidance since that is his job. He is the apostle, and I am but a disciple.

What you YOU do if you met Peter and differed with him on this topic? Would you argue with the man and stick with your own interpretation, or would you heed his guidance and submit to his teaching? He is the apostle after all, and we are but disciples.
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  #36  
Old 06-25-2020, 07:46 PM
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Default Re: States who state, WORTHY

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That is a little too much for me. I cannot say that someone has fallen from God's grace just because they promote the death penalty. There is a valid Biblical argument to made for the death penalty and I am sure that good Christians make it in good faith.
I am one who is for the DP
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  #37  
Old 06-26-2020, 05:25 AM
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Default Re: States who state, WORTHY

I’m sure of most everyone’s take. In continuation for this reconsideration, we know how easily the faith is beset. For from the times of that ancient and young early Church, they themselves acknowledged “, , ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord. (Jude 1:4)

, , as an example for us today yet nowhere within the many handbooks of pro-CP Christian authors will you find the grace of God mentioned. Conversely, doubtful you would find them pointing to the Bible’s level of living punishment to be awarded the guilty perp-parties (another subject).

What else drives away the grace of God of both mercy and stern punishment except through the stouthearted spirit of vengeance?

.
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  #38  
Old 06-26-2020, 09:33 AM
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Arrow Re: States who state, WORTHY

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Originally Posted by whitetiger View Post
I am one who is for the DP
Well, the Catholic Church is pretty much against it, and I had been explaining why I was for it but am willing to defer to the Church and be against it. I said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader View Post
......My logic tells me that the death penalty is okay, but my faith tells me that Jesus gave Peter and the Popes the mission to tend his sheep (John 21:17) and I will defer to them.

If I were to meet Saint Peter himself, and we differed upon the meaning of one of Christ's teachings, would I argue with the man, or would I heed his guidance? I would heed his guidance since that is his job. He is the apostle, and I am but a disciple..........
pryz replied:

Quote:
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How about the whole of God’s redemptive work? If Christians once again turn to invigorate the very presence of Capitol Punishment, then they have fallen from the grace that insures that work.......
That's when I said that I would not go THAT far and say that someone has fallen from God's grace just because they promote the death penalty. I said that there is a valid Biblical argument to made for the death penalty and I am sure that good Christians make it in good faith.

Now you say you are for the DP.

Well, okay. I understand the position. I held the position. But I also understand the Church's reasoning too and it makes sense too.

In the OT, God allows the DP and sort of even orders it himself a few times, so the DP is therefore moral, because God's nature would never allow him to tell people to do immoral things. That is on the Pro DP side.

On the other hand, Jesus tells us that the heart of the law is Mercy, and he wants people to repent. By giving a killer "Life" in the penitentiary (root word "penance") they have time to repent and find God. This is Mercy. That is the anti DP side,

So, choose your poison, as the saying goes.

My NEW opinion based on the Church positions is this: Because modern prison and security technology is such that a prisoner will likely never escape and be a danger to society, which was not the case all that long ago, we can afford to follow Jesus' message of Mercy. When our passion for retribution desires an eye for an eye, we must try to remember what Jesus said about forgiveness:



For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses (Matt 16:14,15)
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  #39  
Old 06-26-2020, 09:34 AM
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Default Re: States who state, WORTHY

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What else drives away the grace of God of both mercy and stern punishment except through the stouthearted spirit of vengeance?
THAT I can agree with.
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"God in his deepest mystery is not a solitude but a family, since he has in himself fatherhood, sonship and the essence of the family which is love"
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  #40  
Old 06-26-2020, 08:54 PM
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Default Re: States who state, WORTHY

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What else drives away the grace of God of both mercy and stern punishment except through the stouthearted spirit of vengeance?

.
Nor vengeance God's mandate from Scripture. It is funny how evangelicals say we follow the Bible but not really
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