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True2Ourselves Forums   > Community Topics > Christianity & Other Religions  > POPE AGREES WITH LUTHER--Revolutionary!!!

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Old 02-11-2009, 03:48 PM
antonio
 
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Default POPE AGREES WITH LUTHER--Revolutionary!!!

I am a RC on self imposed, semi suspension for a variety of reasons one of which is salvation by faith alone. I was surprised and inspired to see the Pope finally agree Luther was correct. My self imposed separation from RCC is in large part due to this Popes regressive and divisive stance on Judaism, Islam and Social Justice. The announcement set forth below goes a long way towards demonstrating he may be searching to find his way back to the brilliant vision of John XXIII (Vatican 2)


BENEDICT XVI GENERAL AUDIENCE St. Peter's Square
Wednesday, 19 November 2008, Saint Paul (13):The Doctrine of Justification: from Works to Faith
Dear Brothers and Sisters,----------------------On the journey we are making under St Paul's guidance, let us now reflect on a topic at the centre of the controversies of the century of the Reformation: the question of justification. How does man become just in God's eyes? When Paul met the Risen One on the road to Damascus he was an accomplished man; irreproachable according to the justice deriving from the Law (cf. Phil 3: 6), Paul surpassed many of his contemporaries in the observance of the Mosaic Law and zealously upheld the traditions of his fathers (cf. Gal 1: 14). The illumination of Damascus radically changed his life; he began to consider all merits acquired in an impeccable religious career as "refuse", in comparison with the sublimity of knowing Jesus Christ (cf. Phil 3: 8). The Letter to the Philippians offers us a moving testimony of Paul's transition from a justice founded on the Law and acquired by his observance of the required actions, to a justice based on faith in Christ. He had understood that what until then had seemed to him to be a gain, before God was, in fact, a loss; and thus he had decided to stake his whole existence on Jesus Christ (cf. Phil 3: 7). The treasure hidden in the field and the precious pearl for whose purchase all was to be invested were no longer in function of the Law, but Jesus Christ, his Lord.
The relationship between Paul and the Risen One became so deep as to induce him to maintain that Christ was no longer solely his life but also his very living, to the point that to be able to reach him death became a gain (cf. Phil 1: 21). This is not to say he despised life, but that he realized that for him at this point there was no other purpose in life and thus he had no other desire than to reach Christ as in an athletics competition to remain with him for ever. The Risen Christ had become the beginning and the end of his existence, the cause and the goal of his race. It was only his concern for the development in faith of those he had evangelized and his anxiety for all of the Churches he founded (cf. 2 Cor 11: 28) that induced him to slow down in his race towards his one Lord, to wait for his disciples so they might run with him towards the goal. Although from a perspective of moral integrity he had nothing to reproach himself in his former observance of the Law, once Christ had reached him he preferred not to make judgments on himself (cf. 1 Cor 4: 3-4). Instead he limited himself to resolving to press on, to make his own the One who had made him his own (cf. Phil 3: 12).
It is precisely because of this personal experience of relationship with Jesus Christ that Paul henceforth places at the centre of his Gospel an irreducible opposition between the two alternative paths to justice: one built on the works of the Law, the other founded on the grace of faith in Christ. The alternative between justice by means of works of the Law and that by faith in Christ thus became one of the dominant themes that run through his Letters: "We ourselves, who are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners, yet who know that a man is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus in order to be justified by faith in Christ, and not by works of the law; because by works of the law no one will be justified" (Gal 2: 15-16). And to the Christians of Rome he reasserts that "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are now justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus" (Rm 3: 23-24). And he adds "we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the law" (ibid., v. 28). At this point Luther translated: "justified by faith alone". I shall return to this point at the end of the Catechesis. First, we must explain what is this "Law" from which we are freed and what are those "works of the Law" that do not justify. ……………………………………………………………………………………………..So what does the Law from which we are liberated and which does not save mean? For St Paul, as for all his contemporaries, the word "Law" meant the Torah in its totality, that is, the five books of Moses. Paul, who had learned these observances in their role of defending God's gift, of the inheritance of faith in one God alone, saw this identity threatened by the freedom of the Christians this is why he persecuted them. …………………………………………………………………………………………….. For this reason Luther's phrase: "faith alone" is true, if it is not opposed to faith in charity, in love. Faith is looking at Christ, entrusting oneself to Christ, being united to Christ, conformed to Christ, to his life. And the form, the life of Christ, is love; hence to believe is to conform to Christ and to enter into his love. So it is that in the Letter to the Galatians in which he primarily developed his teaching on justification St Paul speaks of faith that works through love (cf. Gal 5: 14)…………………………………………………………………………………………It is the Gospel of the judge whose sole criterion is love. What he asks is only this: Did you visit me when I was sick? When I was in prison? Did you give me food to eat when I was hungry, did you clothe me when I was naked? And thus justice is decided in charity. Thus, at the end of this Gospel we can almost say: love alone, charity alone. But there is no contradiction between this Gospel and St Paul. It is the same vision, according to which communion with Christ, faith in Christ, creates charity. And charity is the fulfilment of communion with Christ. Thus, we are just by being united with him and in no other way.
At the end, we can only pray the Lord that he help us to believe; really believe. Believing thus becomes life, unity with Christ, the transformation of our life. And thus, transformed by his love, by the love of God and neighbour, we can truly be just in God's eyes.

antonio

PS---what is the Torah from which, the Pope says, we are liberated---
The Torah is the most holy of the sacred writings in Judaism. It is the first of three sections in the Tanakh (Hebrew Bible), the founding religious document of Judaism, and is divided into five books, whose names in English are Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy, in reference to their themes (Their Hebrew names, Bereshit, בראשית, Shemot שמות, Vayikra ויקרא, Bamidbar במדבר, and Devarim דברים, are derived from the wording of their initial verses). The Torah contains a variety of literary genres, including allegories, historical narrative, poetry, genealogy, and the exposition of various types of law. According to rabbinic tradition, the Torah contains the 613 mitzvot (מצוות, "commandments"), which are divided into 365 negative restrictions and 248 positive commands. In rabbinic literature, the word "Torah" denotes both the written text, "Torah Shebichtav" (תורה שבכתב, "Torah that is written"), as well as an oral tradition, "Torah Shebe'al Peh" (תורה שבעל פה, "Torah that is oral"). The oral portion consists of the "traditional interpretations and amplifications handed down by word of mouth from generation to generation," now embodied in the Talmud and Midrash. (wikipedia)

So, at least for RCs, the Torah no longer restrains or binds them. It is as Paul has said, Dead, Nailed to the Cross.

Last edited by antonio : 02-11-2009 at 07:05 PM. Reason: Debris removed
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Old 02-25-2009, 08:23 AM
winsome's Avatar
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Default Re: POPE AGREES WITH LUTHER--Revolutionary!!!

Not so revolutionary. The Catholic Church does not teach salvation by works and never has.

As Peter Kreeft (Catholic apologist) puts it

The Protestant Reformation began when a Catholic monk rediscovered a Catholic doctrine in a Catholic book. The monk, of course, was Luther; the doctrine was justification by faith; and the book was the Bible. One of the tragic ironies of Christian history is that the deepest split in the history of the Church, and the one that has occasioned the most persecution, hatred, and bloody wars on both sides, from the Peasants’ War of Luther’s day through the Thirty Years’ War, which claimed a larger percentage of the population of many parts of central Europe than any other war in history, including the two world wars, to the present-day agony in Northern Ireland — this split between Protestant and Catholic originated in a misunderstanding. And to this day many Catholics and many Protestants still do not realize that fact.

He goes on to say:

When Luther taught that we are saved by faith alone, he meant by salvation only the initial step, justification, being put right with God. But when Trent said we are saved by good works as well as faith, they meant by salvation the whole process by which God brings us to our eternal destiny and that process includes repentance, faith, hope, and charity, the works of love.

The word faith was also used in two different senses. Luther used it in the broad sense of the person’s acceptance of God’s offer of salvation. It included repentance, faith, hope, and charity. This is the sense Saint Paul uses in Romans. But in 1 Corinthians 13, Paul uses it in a more specific sense, as just one of the three theological virtues, with hope and charity added to it. In this narrower sense faith alone is not sufficient for salvation, for hope and charity must be present also. That is the sense used by the old Baltimore Catechism too: faith is “an act of the intellect, prompted by the will, by which we believe what has been revealed on the grounds of the authority of God, who revealed it”.

This “faith”, though prompted by the will, is an act of the intellect. Though necessary for salvation, it is not sufficient. Even the devils have this faith, as Saint James writes: “Do you believe that there is only one God? Good! The demons also believe — and tremble with fear” (James 2: 19). That is why James says, “it is by his actions that a person is put right with God, and not by his faith alone” (James 2:24). Luther, however, called James’ epistle “an epistle of straw”. He did not understand James’ point (applied to Abraham’s faith): “Can’t you see? His faith and his action worked together; his faith was made perfect through his actions” (James 2:2 2).

It’s worth reading the Catholic/Lutheran Joint Declaration On The Doctrine Of Justification (1999) to better appreciate the different understandings and how they are reconciled.
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Old 02-25-2009, 04:20 PM
antonio
 
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Default Re: POPE AGREES WITH LUTHER--Revolutionary!!!

Dear Windsom, you wrote
Quote:
When Luther taught that we are saved by faith alone, he meant by salvation only the initial step, justification, being put right with God.
I appreciate your response. No one seems to have any interest in this. Perhaps it’s because my post displays such ignorance that it has no interest. But since you did respond, I would hope you would explain your statements.
1. Your division of SALVATION into parts, a) justification and b) the whole process, is new to me. I formed my conclusions based on what Paul said , for example Colossians, Jesus nailed sin to the cross and throughout his teachings he says sin is dead and he says it in a variety of ways. It is based on that, I concluded minimally, that after Jesus fulfilled the law, sin no longer existed for those that believe.*

You wrote
Quote:
But when Trent said we are saved by good works as well as faith, they meant by salvation the whole process by which God brings us to our eternal destiny and that process includes repentance, faith, hope, and charity, the works of love.
2. Where does this notion of "a process" get set forth as a condition of salvation? If it means after being saved and being outside of the jurisdiction of sin, then it is ( or at least may be) consistent with what I consider the fruits of belief in Jesus. Here is a chain that I tentatively propose as setting forth what I believe Paul teaches.
Belief (faith/submission)-->GRACE(Welcome and come in) -->Salvation(a developing unity with God)-->Gratitude/Love(for God and all His creation)-->Happiness (here and in heaven)
My chain says nothing about Justification. The entire foundation/tree is Faith. Everything thereafter is the edifice or fruits of Salvation.(note: I refer to it as a "chain" rather than cause and effect only because I believe C&E/karma ends with Grace--we don't get what we deserve but in spite of what we deserve, we get God's love)
The reason for my chain::
Faith necessarily includes Trust—how could we submit to God if we didn’t trust Him?
Faith necessarily includes Hope—how could we submit to God and why would we submit if we didn’t have Hope?
Faith necessarily includes Love—why would we submit to a God we didn’t love and therefore love all that He has done and therefore love all His creation?


So Faith is fundamental it includes trust, hope and love but it also bears as a tree bears each season, new crops of trust , hope and love. These new crops are what bring us closer to God and also makes us happier and more fulfilled here on earth.
You wrote:
Quote:
The word faith was also used in two different senses. Luther used it in the broad sense of the person’s acceptance of God’s offer of salvation. It included repentance, faith, hope, and charity. This is the sense Saint Paul uses in Romans. But in 1 Corinthians 13, Paul uses it in a more specific sense, as just one of the three theological virtues, with hope and charity added to it.
That is not how I read 1Cor13. in the last verse Paul says, “13 But for right now, until that completeness, we have three things to do to lead us toward that consummation: Trust steadily in God, hope unswervingly, love extravagantly. And the best of the three is love.”
He doesn’t mention “Faith”. What I understand Paul is saying is once you already have Faith,Believe in Jesus as God, then the fruit of that belief is Trust –How can you trust in Jesus if you don’t believe in Him; Hope—what is there to hope for regarding our joinder with God if we don’t believe in that God, Love—If we believe in Jesus as our God, then how can we do anything but love Him and if we believe, logic requires we love everyone else, each of person is on equal footing with us in front of God. I am repeating a bit but stay with me---Paul is making the point in this verse, that the whole law is contained in loving and uses hyperbole to make his point. “If I could walk on water and raise the dead but didn’t have love, I am nothing” Certainly true, but, however, how could a human do those things if they had not already transcended to a higher consciousness of connectedness to God. Without love for God no one can walk on water or perform even the smallest miracle. But without Faith, why would someone love God?
It has started snowing here and the flakes are bigger than I have ever seen. I am in our little apartment near ER with my dearest ones and I am overwhelmed with love and gratitude to my Father for the snow, our cozy little apartment and what He has given me. Sorry, it is very beautiful here. Ok, back to post-----
The last verse doesn’t mention faith. Does that mean faith isn’t critical. I don’t think so. Rather, I think, he is trying to tell his audience the meaning of “faith in God/ “believing on Him” ;that it is submission to God, Faith, which must come first.
When Grace saves us, the “narrow path” is set out before us. It is “narrow” which means those who try to walk it will stumble and step off but if they desire, they can get up, step back onto it and continue on the path. It is a “path” because it is a process, a way of life that brings us not only to unity with God but happiness, fulfillment and abundance here in this life. Wouldn’t we do as much for our kids? So why would God do any less?

You wrote
Quote:
In this narrower sense faith alone is not sufficient for salvation, for hope and charity must be present also. That is the sense used by the old Baltimore Catechism too: faith is “an act of the intellect, prompted by the will, by which we believe what has been revealed on the grounds of the authority of God, who revealed it”.
I have no disagreement with the Balt. Cat. but such an act of intellect would never occur with out love, trust and hope.For these are what I call submission to God. That while they are the components of Faith, Faith requires no effort or works but only an act of intellect. This is a condition of salvation. But once we are saved then the fruits of Faith and Grace is gratitude and the resulting good works. These good works are the result of acts and effort but such acts and efforts are not conditions of Faith and Grace but rather , the results of it. They are works done in loving gratitude for the Gift of Grace.

You wrote
Quote:
This “faith”, though prompted by the will, is an act of the intellect. Though necessary for salvation, it is not sufficient. Even the devils have this faith, as Saint James writes: “Do you believe that there is only one God? Good! The demons also believe — and tremble with fear” (James 2: 19). That is why James says, “it is by his actions that a person is put right with God, and not by his faith alone” (James 2:24). Luther, however, called James’ epistle “an epistle of straw”. He did not understand James’ point (applied to Abraham’s faith): “Can’t you see? His faith and his action worked together; his faith was made perfect through his actions” (James 2:2 2).
Sorry, I agree with Luther. Lets look at James.
Who are “the demons?” James knows nothing about them, really. Do they have free will? Could they choose to stop being demons and love God? If so then they have freewill. If they have freewill, and with being familiar with the supernatural, they actually know God, not just hopeing and believing, how could they then resist not submitting to God, and enjoying His paradise. If they have no free will, then they have no choice so it's absurd for James to say, "Gee they know there is a God but wont do good works. There is more to Faith than simply knowing God(which is incomprehensible from a human perspective, since none of us know God)Belief is submitting oneself to God. The "demons" James mentions may know God but they don't submit to Him. Also, consider, if they could and did decide to stop being demons, knowing the supernatural, they don't need hope, or trust or love, faith delivers them from demons to heavenly residents.
James is a Jew who was in opposition to Paul. James still clings on to the law as bringing righteousness. Does James ever say the Law is Dead? Does he ever mention "Grace?"
[quote]A)JAMES assumes this birthright after the death and resurrection of Jesus and takes over control of the Jewish/Christian church in Jersusalem, NOT JOHN, NOT PETER, AND NOT THE APOSTLE JAMES.
B) James never associated with non-Jews. He taught if a Gentile wanted to be a Christian, they must follow The Law and be circumcised (Galatians 2). James was trying to reconcile the Old Testament Law (10 Commandments) with the New Testament Law of salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
C) James addresses his letter to those under the OLD Covenant... those who follow the Law and NOT TO CHRIST'S CHURCH thosewho are now of the NEW Covenant!
James 1:1
James a bondservant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,
To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad:
After this verse, Jesus' name is never mentioned again in the Epistle of James. The Gospel message of GRACE is not mentioned anywhere in the the Epistle of James!
Paul was not only personally called by Jesus, but Paul was called as the 13th Apostle after Matthias who took Judas' place. Was James ever “called?”
All of Paul's writings are written to the Church, and written in the voice of the New Covenant...a message of Faith in Christ Jesus.
Paul did not seek a position of authority over the Church. INSTEAD he worked at building churches by preaching the Gospels to the Gentiles./QUOTE]
In Jesus, I welcome your critical commentary.

It’s worth reading the Catholic/Lutheran Joint Declaration On The Doctrine Of Justification (1999) to better appreciate the different understandings and how they are reconciled.I will try to locate it and read it.
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Old 02-26-2009, 04:49 AM
winsome's Avatar
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Default Re: POPE AGREES WITH LUTHER--Revolutionary!!!

Hi Antonio,

I posted the quotes from Peter Kreeft as it seems to make the point that much of the differences between Luther and the Catholic Church (on this particular issue) was more a matter of the different usage of words than of the actual theology. That is not say there are no differences. Indeed one commentator on the Joint Declaration says that agreement is only possible because of some fudging in the wording.


The Pope says in the quotation you gave:
For this reason Luther's phrase: "faith alone" is true, if it is not opposed to faith in charity, in love. (my emphasis)

And this is the point. What is meant by faith? There is a problem with words in that they often have different meaning, or shades of meaning. Words can be used in a narrow sense or a very broad sense. When two people use the same word in different ways then misunderstanding arises.

The two key words in this are salvation and faith.

Let me takes Salvation. You say Paul teaches Salvation(a developing unity with God). I would say that salvation has a past, present and future. We can say I have been saved, I am being saved and I hope to be saved.”

I once did a long comparison of our salvation journey with the salvation journey of the Israelites when God brought them out of Egypt and took them to the Promised Land. I won’t go into the whole of it because it is very long. But you can see these three stages. And Paul teaches all three stages.

Peter Kreeft said in my quote
When Luther taught that we are saved by faith alone, he meant by salvation only the initial step, justification, being put right with God.

Then there are three different uses of the word faith (perhaps more).
One is in the narrow sense of belief. I think this is called fiduciary faith.
Another is in the sense of trust. This is the sense that Paul uses it in 1 Cor 13:13
So faith, hope, love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
The third sense is the broadest sense and includes, as you suggest, hope and love.

On the question of works. Again I think there is misunderstanding about the catholic position. We are not saved/justified by our works, by our own strength. That is the heresy of Pelagianism. We cannot earn salvation. It is gift.

But James is quite clear that “works” have a role. So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead. (Jas 2:17). But those works are ones that are the fruit of living faith, fruitful faith. They are works of love from the Spirit of God living in us. In that way they are not works of man but works of God.

Does that make sense?
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Old 02-26-2009, 06:15 AM
antonio
 
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Default Re: POPE AGREES WITH LUTHER--Revolutionary!!!

It makes sense, but what new are you adding?
antonio
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Old 02-26-2009, 07:54 AM
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Default Re: POPE AGREES WITH LUTHER--Revolutionary!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by antonio View Post
It makes sense, but what new are you adding?
antonio
Just clarifying
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Old 03-08-2009, 08:29 PM
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Default Re: POPE AGREES WITH LUTHER--Revolutionary!!!

I think separating yourself from the catholic church was a good decision on your part.

If you speak spanish, I recommend going to the freecdtracts website (type in "testimonios de impacto" on the yahoo search engine and click on the first link you see -- you'll find many interesting testimonies there) and listen to the testimonies by Felipe Casaux (ex-catholic bishop) and the one by Jose Lusiano Luna Diaz (ex-jesuit priest).

I found the things revealed by them to be extremely interesting. I don't think they lied about the things they said. Listen to them and tell me what you think.

Last edited by FollowerofChrist : 03-08-2009 at 09:52 PM.
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Old 03-09-2009, 09:15 PM
antonio
 
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Default Re: POPE AGREES WITH LUTHER--Revolutionary!!!

Dear FC--I've been there. I'm not that separated from RC.
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Old 03-11-2009, 11:00 AM
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Default Re: POPE AGREES WITH LUTHER--Revolutionary!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by FollowerofChrist View Post
I think separating yourself from the catholic church was a good decision on your part.

If you speak spanish, I recommend going to the freecdtracts website (type in "testimonios de impacto" on the yahoo search engine and click on the first link you see -- you'll find many interesting testimonies there) and listen to the testimonies by Felipe Casaux (ex-catholic bishop) and the one by Jose Lusiano Luna Diaz (ex-jesuit priest).

I found the things revealed by them to be extremely interesting. I don't think they lied about the things they said. Listen to them and tell me what you think.
Hmmmm

“Bishop” Felipe Casaux comes under the heading Ex-Monja Sacerdote Católico Romano which babelfish translates as Ex--Nun Roman Catholic Priest.

Rather an odd heading.

There does not seem to be any trace of “Bishop” Felipe Casaux on the Internet

That section also contains Alberta Rivera “Ex-Jesuit Priest”. I presume this is the Alberto Rivera of the Jack Chick comics who claimed to be an undercover agent of the Jesuits to infiltrate and destroy Protestant Churches and institutions. He also claimed to have been made a bishop.

He was exposed as a fraud and had has arrest warrants against him for theft. The Catholic Church has no record of him being a priest.

Jose Lusiano Luna Diaz (ex-Jesuit priest) also seems to be invisible except for the videos circulating.

I would take much notice of this stuff.
There seem to be anumber of these so-called ex-catholic priests and ex-catholic nuns that no-one can trace and are usually fraudulent.

Last edited by winsome : 03-11-2009 at 11:02 AM.
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Old 03-11-2009, 09:41 PM
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Default Re: POPE AGREES WITH LUTHER--Revolutionary!!!

i have people change their entire views on faith because of what the pope may say.... wow, didnt think one fleshly man would be so powerful.......

i say listen to GOd.....but that's just me
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