[prisonchaplain]

I'll just throw out these difficulties I've seen in religions, as they try to explain God. None of these are meant to be comprehensive, and certainly not perjorative. It's my observation that in interfaith forums, these are difficulties that often are hard to explain--especially to skeptics. Also, by way of disclosure, I'm trinitarian, so my explanations of the others are from an outsider's perspective.

Trinitarians (me): How can God be three persons, but one essential God?

LDS: How can there be three Gods, one Godhead in purpose, and is this monotheism, henotheism, or polytheism?

Jehovah's Witnesses: The whole question of who Jesus really is--an angel? a god? God, but not Jehovah? And just who is he to us vs. Jehovah?

Catholic: This is minor, of course, compared to the others, but just what is Mary's relationship with God, since she is the immaculate Mother of Jesus (God)?

The "Trinity" or 1+1+1 = 1

"...... We worship one God in the trinity, and Trinity in Unity...for there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, another of the Holy Ghost is all one...They are not three gods... the whole three persons are co-eternal and co equal... he therefore that will be swved must thus think of trinity..."

This "Trinity cannot be explain by Bible. Is against the Bible. Cannot be eccepted as teaching from God. It was a blind faith. Let us understand the above in open minded:

WHY our church speaks of worship God, Jesus & the holy Ghost are claimed to be ONE BEING ? This is because so many verses in the Bible are very explicit in affirming that God is ONE. Verses such as Isaiah 43:10-11 & many other verses very clearly stated God is ONE.
When God is describe as "begotten" a son it is not "Trinity" because it separated being from the other two.
When we speak of "The death of God" - it is Jesus who is claimed to have died.. Only Jesus died not the "Trinity" or God died.
It happened only on one and not to all the three in one god. It very clear "distinctly separate being".
In the Bible we read :

1. Thou shat have no other gods before me (Exodus 20:3 ) Explicit statement
2. Know therefore this day,and consider it in thine heart, that the Lord he is God in heaven above and upon the earth beneath: there is none else (Deuteronomy 4:39)
3. For thou shalt worship no other god: for the Lord whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God (Exodus 34:14)
4 Thus saith the Lord the king of Israel and his redeemer the Lord of hosts. I am the first and I am the last and beside me there is no God (Isaiah 44:6)
5. Look unto me and be ye saved, all the ends of earth: for I am God and there is none else (Isaiah 45:22)

Read yourselve other explicit statement -Isaiah 45:18, Isaiah 45:6, Isaiah 43:10-11

NONE in the Bible claimed to be "three in one" can you find a verse something like this "God , Jesus and Holy Ghost are all gods, however, they are not three gods but one" I never come across statement like "God , Jesus and Holy Ghost are the same being" Or "They are the same" or "they are three in one"

Implicit Statement such as Matthew 28:29, I Corinthians12:4-6, Jude 1:20-21 ,
You read yourselve.. You will find it so abstract. I will explain to you if I have time tonight.

Let us continue with our analysis . Let take one implicit statement Example Jude 1:20-21 ...

"But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, prying in the Holy Ghost, Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life"

Can we honestly claim that this statement requires a merging of three into one ? If you campare with Deuteronomy 4:39 above Deuteronomy 4:39 is direct & unique . It is very explicit. You don't have to strain the words and stretch your head to understand the meaning.

Why Abraham , Jacob, and many other prophets send by God Almighty to Jews including Moses did not know about Trinity ?

Jesus is claimed to have been in existence before all of creation , But Why did none of these previous prophets tell their people that God was three ? They keep telling God is One!!!!!

Was God not yet a Trinity when he spoke to Moses ?

How then do we explain the Christian creed of Nicea, the official Church definition of the "Trinity" ???????

OK ! The Bible cannot defense The Trinity ...Bible say God is ONE. Bible also say God is TWO example John 1:1 , John 10:30

Bible also say God is MANY !!!!! see Genesis 1:26.

Do you know how many sons does God have ? Too many !!!!! See the quoted verse

1. Jacob is God's son and firstborn : "Israel is my son, even my firstborn" (Exodus 4:22)

2. Solomon is God's son " He shall build an house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom for ever. I will be his father and he shall be my son" 2 Samuel &:13-14

3. Adam is the son of God " Adam, which was the son of God" Luke 3:38.

Even common people like you and me are the son of God " Ye are the children of the LORD your God" Deuteronomy 14:1

Jesus is not the only begotten son of God . Read Psalms 2:7 "I will declare the decree : The LORD hath said unto me (King David, King) Thou artmy son: this day have begotten thee. "

You must know the language of Jesus. The language of the Jews to whom he was speaking . As we can see from these and many other verses like them, The words "Son Of God" in the language of the Jews was a very innocent term used to drscribe a loyal servant of God.

Why we not learned the truth "Son of God" or "son of God" meant "loyal servant of God"

Example: Jesus is referred to as the "son of Man" ...(literally : meant "Human being"

Jesus constantly saying "I am the son of man" Why? It was because in the language of the Jews .that is how you say. "I am a human being".

I am servant of God & I am a human being..... This was the truth.

Trinity defination - Co-equality : but Bible says can not be ............ ' My father is greater than I" John 14:28

- Co-eternity : God is claimed to have "begotten" Jesus...understod God performed this action then Jesus come into being. Before begetting jesus did not exist so never be co-eternal ...Very simple logic !!!!

- Consubstantiality: Remember Jesus is claimed to have died (Mark 15:37) If God & Jesus are one substance the God died also. I am Doctor in Chemistry !!!

Remember before Jesus died Jesus cried with a loud voice saying. Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God , my God , why hast thou forsaken me ? Matthew 27:46.

Seee one substance but different will ... You see Trinity is why they called a "mystery"

IT IS NOT GOD NATURE TO CREATE CONFUSION...!

[WIP]

Originally Posted by prisonchaplain

I'll just throw out these difficulties I've seen in religions, as they try to explain God. None of these are meant to be comprehensive, and certainly not perjorative. It's my observation that in interfaith forums, these are difficulties that often are hard to explain--especially to skeptics.

Nothing is hard to explain to the person who sincerely desires to understand another's perspective. And it is pointless to explain something to a skeptic.

So are you asking about our various understandings of God because you sincerely want to understand them? If so, I've already explained the LDS perspective as a direct response to your question in another forum:

Originally Posted by PrisonChaplain

I have one question. I've asked it of LDS, and gotten different answers. Do you consider your faith to ultimately be: a. Monotheistic b. Henotheistic (there may be many gods, but your people worship only one) or c. Polytheistic?

And my response:

Originally Posted by Jesse

My honest answer is that in a way, or under certain conditions, it is all of them.

For example, it is monotheistic in that I recognize only God the Father as the ultimate source of my life, blessings, and salvation. There is no other God for me but Him. I do not pray to anyone else—not Christ and not the Holy Ghost—only my Father.

That said, however, the Father's work fails without his Son—Christ—who is also my God. He is God by divine investiture of authority. He is God by virtue of having been the instrument through which creation (which includes my temporal body) was actually brought into effect. He is God by virtue of his atonement, through which I am "born anew." So, in so many ways he also is my father, yet disctinct from the Father. So, to worship one is, in essence, to worship the other. In that loose but real sense my faith is polytheistic.

The last one is the weakest of them, I'd say, but still somewhat applicable. My faith (or my religion) is certainly not henotheistic. I do not look to any foreign god for salvation. But my faith allows for the existence of other gods who are like my Heavenly Father, simply as an extrapolation of the doctrine of the gospel both forward and backward in time. I certainly know nothing of any other god, of course. And in a way I really don't even know of them. So little is there to even go from. It's somewhat like asking me about the Celestial Kingdom. Yes, I know about it, but I've never been there, nor personally spoken to anyone who has been there. That doesn't make it unreal or impossible.

In your OP, you mentioned that you've found these concepts (and those of other faiths) "difficult to explain." For whom? Did you mean "difficult to understand"? Or perhaps "difficult to accept"? If the former, that requires sincere personal effort, derived from a real desire to understand. If the latter, that requires at least the accomplishing of the former. I think it all comes down to what you (generally speaking) want.

Jesse

[Mark]

Originally Posted by udontnoiroyo

The "Trinity" or 1+1+1 = 1

"...... We worship one God in the trinity, and Trinity in Unity...for there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, another of the Holy Ghost is all one...They are not three gods... the whole three persons are co-eternal and co equal... he therefore that will be swved must thus think of trinity..."

This "Trinity cannot be explain by Bible. Is against the Bible. Cannot be eccepted as teaching from God. It was a blind faith. Let us understand the above in open minded:

WHY our church speaks of worship God, Jesus & the holy Ghost are claimed to be ONE BEING ? This is because so many verses in the Bible are very explicit in affirming that God is ONE. Verses such as Isaiah 43:10-11 & many other verses very clearly stated God is ONE.
When God is describe as "begotten" a son it is not "Trinity" because it separated being from the other two.
When we speak of "The death of God" - it is Jesus who is claimed to have died.. Only Jesus died not the "Trinity" or God died.
It happened only on one and not to all the three in one god. It very clear "distinctly separate being".
In the Bible we read :

1. Thou shat have no other gods before me (Exodus 20:3 ) Explicit statement
2. Know therefore this day,and consider it in thine heart, that the Lord he is God in heaven above and upon the earth beneath: there is none else (Deuteronomy 4:39)
3. For thou shalt worship no other god: for the Lord whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God (Exodus 34:14)
4 Thus saith the Lord the king of Israel and his redeemer the Lord of hosts. I am the first and I am the last and beside me there is no God (Isaiah 44:6)
5. Look unto me and be ye saved, all the ends of earth: for I am God and there is none else (Isaiah 45:22)

Read yourselve other explicit statement -Isaiah 45:18, Isaiah 45:6, Isaiah 43:10-11

NONE in the Bible claimed to be "three in one" can you find a verse something like this "God , Jesus and Holy Ghost are all gods, however, they are not three gods but one" I never come across statement like "God , Jesus and Holy Ghost are the same being" Or "They are the same" or "they are three in one"

Implicit Statement such as Matthew 28:29, I Corinthians12:4-6, Jude 1:20-21 ,
You read yourselve.. You will find it so abstract. I will explain to you if I have time tonight.

Let us continue with our analysis . Let take one implicit statement Example Jude 1:20-21 ...

"But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, prying in the Holy Ghost, Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life"

Can we honestly claim that this statement requires a merging of three into one ? If you campare with Deuteronomy 4:39 above Deuteronomy 4:39 is direct & unique . It is very explicit. You don't have to strain the words and stretch your head to understand the meaning.

Why Abraham , Jacob, and many other prophets send by God Almighty to Jews including Moses did not know about Trinity ?

Jesus is claimed to have been in existence before all of creation , But Why did none of these previous prophets tell their people that God was three ? They keep telling God is One!!!!!

Was God not yet a Trinity when he spoke to Moses ?

How then do we explain the Christian creed of Nicea, the official Church definition of the "Trinity" ???????

OK ! The Bible cannot defense The Trinity ...Bible say God is ONE. Bible also say God is TWO example John 1:1 , John 10:30

Bible also say God is MANY !!!!! see Genesis 1:26.

Do you know how many sons does God have ? Too many !!!!! See the quoted verse

1. Jacob is God's son and firstborn : "Israel is my son, even my firstborn" (Exodus 4:22)

2. Solomon is God's son " He shall build an house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom for ever. I will be his father and he shall be my son" 2 Samuel &:13-14

3. Adam is the son of God " Adam, which was the son of God" Luke 3:38.

Even common people like you and me are the son of God " Ye are the children of the LORD your God" Deuteronomy 14:1

Jesus is not the only begotten son of God . Read Psalms 2:7 "I will declare the decree : The LORD hath said unto me (King David, King) Thou artmy son: this day have begotten thee. "

You must know the language of Jesus. The language of the Jews to whom he was speaking . As we can see from these and many other verses like them, The words "Son Of God" in the language of the Jews was a very innocent term used to drscribe a loyal servant of God.

Why we not learned the truth "Son of God" or "son of God" meant "loyal servant of God"

Example: Jesus is referred to as the "son of Man" ...(literally : meant "Human being"

Jesus constantly saying "I am the son of man" Why? It was because in the language of the Jews .that is how you say. "I am a human being".

I am servant of God & I am a human being..... This was the truth.

Trinity defination - Co-equality : but Bible says can not be ............ ' My father is greater than I" John 14:28

- Co-eternity : God is claimed to have "begotten" Jesus...understod God performed this action then Jesus come into being. Before begetting jesus did not exist so never be co-eternal ...Very simple logic !!!!

- Consubstantiality: Remember Jesus is claimed to have died (Mark 15:37) If God & Jesus are one substance the God died also. I am Doctor in Chemistry !!!

Remember before Jesus died Jesus cried with a loud voice saying. Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God , my God , why hast thou forsaken me ? Matthew 27:46.

Seee one substance but different will ... You see Trinity is why they called a "mystery"

IT IS NOT GOD NATURE TO CREATE CONFUSION...!

When people are left to their own devices, this is the result i.e. watered down and/or false teachings... over and over we see people concocting wild theories regarding the Christian faith - all supposedly "grounded in scripture"... first, they throw out the authority of the church (and find scripture to support it)... eventually, they throw traditional marriage out the window (and support it with a "theory") ... and in this case, they throw the Trinity out (supported by some "theory")... what's next?

*I have a theory of my own... some people here don't know as much as they think they do.

Originally Posted by Mark

When people are left to their own devices, this is the result i.e. watered down and/or false teachings... over and over we see people concocting wild theories regarding the Christian faith - all supposedly "grounded in scripture"... first, they throw out the authority of the church (and find scripture to support it)... eventually, they throw traditional marriage out the window (and support it with a "theory") ... and in this case, they throw the Trinity out (supported by some "theory")... what's next?

*I have a theory of my own... some people here don't know as much as they think they do.

Great theory !

At least the young man gave his view. Now someone else can give their view.

[Mark]

Originally Posted by Mysteryman

Great theory !

At least the young man gave his view. Now someone else can give their view.

I suppose I'm letting my frustrations get to me this morning. I'm simply bothered by the tone of "absolute" when the message opposes the teachings of mainstream Christianity. I'm still not certain where that line should be drawn.

Originally Posted by Mark

I suppose I'm letting my frustrations get to me this morning. I'm simply bothered by the tone of "absolute" when the message opposes the teachings of mainstream Christianity. I'm still not certain where that line should be drawn.

I understand, as I know in my heart, that I also can not allow my emotions to dictate what my sincere feelings are. I think this is diffuclt for all of us . So we must keep our emotions in control, by not allowing our emotions to control us.

Bless

[Mark]

Originally Posted by Mysteryman

I understand, as I know in my heart, that I also can not allow my emotions to dictate what my sincere feelings are. I think this is diffuclt for all of us . So we must keep our emotions in control, by not allowing our emotions to control us.

Bless

Originally Posted by Mark

Hehehehe Ahhh hahahaha, Good reply!
When words fail, humor intercedes.

[prisonchaplain]

Originally Posted by WIP

In your OP, you mentioned that you've found these concepts (and those of other faiths) "difficult to explain." For whom? Did you mean "difficult to understand"? Or perhaps "difficult to accept"? If the former, that requires sincere personal effort, derived from a real desire to understand. If the latter, that requires at least the accomplishing of the former. I think it all comes down to what you (generally speaking) want.

Jesse

For example...I'm Trinitarian. I find the Trinity difficult to explain to non-trinitarians, because they get caught with matters that I simply accept. Did you note that the post right after the OP was a treatise on how the Trinity fails to explain God? Perfect example. The most common difficulty I see non-Trinitarians grapple with is how one God can be three persons, and three persons can be one God. BTW, it's 1X1X1=1...not addition.

Surely most of us here have tried to explain their faith's understanding of God's nature, and found that at a particular point, there is some factor that non-members find hard to accept? No?