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True2Ourselves Forums   > Community Topics > Christianity & Other Religions  > Difficulties explaining the nature of God

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  #21  
Old 02-09-2010, 04:32 PM
Mysteryman
 
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Default Re: Difficulties explaining the nature of God

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Originally Posted by prisonchaplain View Post
You missed the answer. 1+1+1 = 1 is indeed false doctrine. It's also bad math. However, Trinitarians insist it's 1X1X1 = 1. That's a true teaching, and excellent math. Note, three distinct persons, each with their own place in the equation--but they are the one true and living God. We Trinitarians affirm with pride the schema (Duet 6:4) that is quoted in Mark's gospel. Scholars of religion almost universally join Christianity (which is mostly Trinitarian) with Islam and Judaism and one of the three great monotheistic religions in the world.
There is illogical math, and then there is logical math.

Logical math is this - 3 x 1 = 3

Illogical math is this having "three" and explaining it as 1 x 1 x 1 = 1

Logical math is this - The two shall become one

Illogical math is this - Three are one

It is God that sets the standard for logic, not us.
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  #22  
Old 02-09-2010, 04:42 PM
Mysteryman
 
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Exclamation Re: Difficulties explaining the nature of God

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Originally Posted by prisonchaplain View Post
Trinity Analogies

TRIANGLE: Probably the most classic. Three distinct sides make one God.

EGG: Again, three distinct parts of the egg, to make the egg.

H2O: There is a certain tempature at which water can appear simultaneously as gas, liquid and solid. Each of these is different, and yet the made up of the same elements.

Each of these, and many other attempts at analogies are simply meant to show how each person of the Trinity (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) can have his own personhood, and yet be necessary to comprise God. Critics can easily show where some of these analogies falter, but they do help us picture the idea of the individuality of the three persons, and yet the essential unity of God.
H2O is water

Two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen = The most three, the least two < one of the mysteries within the Word of God

H2O seperated totally is H + H + O --- all gas and not a liquid, combined they make a liquid. H is the same as H, but O is differnt, a different gas.

Even as a liquid - H2O can only be a solid or a liquid, never a gas ! Only H is a gas, and the other H is the same gas, and O is a gas. Water is only a solid or a liquid.
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  #23  
Old 02-09-2010, 06:58 PM
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Default Re: Difficulties explaining the nature of God

Mystery, if God created the mystery of human marriage, whereby two become one (and then often many more...), why could He not be the three persons that are the one God? Actually, your example would seem to amplify mine. Muchos gracias.
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  #24  
Old 02-09-2010, 08:56 PM
Mysteryman
 
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Default Re: Difficulties explaining the nature of God

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Originally Posted by prisonchaplain View Post
Mystery, if God created the mystery of human marriage, whereby two become one (and then often many more...), why could He not be the three persons that are the one God? Actually, your example would seem to amplify mine. Muchos gracias.
What I find interesting about God, is that he is a God that changes not. That means that He can not trick my mind, by just changing into something or someone different.

The two become one principle is two fold. When Jesus said my Father and I are one. He meant that they are one in agreement with one another. But in marriage, since woman came out from man. The principle is only different, in that, since they were both one, in marriage, they become one again.

We might hear the phrase that the three are one. But if we look a little closer, we find that water fits this theory. But water is not A + A + A = 1

We find that H + H + O, become one, not are one. Whenever we use the phrase "are one", it does not mean that they are the same. It means that the three make up the one in purpose. For instance, God made us body , soul, and spirit. These three are one. But remember that God created man in his own image. Male and female in the one man Adam. Seperate them, and they come back to be one again. Male sperm and female egg (ovum) come together to become one again. Why ? Because at one time they were one.

God is like water, in that we have H + H + O. O - represents the Son of God. It is different than both H's. One H is the Father, and the other H is the Holy Spirit. They are the same , in fact the exact same. This means that The Holy Spirit and The Father are both exactly same . They are never seperate from another. The Father is the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit is the Father. But the Son is different ! The Son was in the bosom of the Father, which means that the "seed" of Christ was within the Father. Now, the Father needs to plant his seed . His female side is barren, which is the Jerusalem above. The Father, who is the Holy Spirit, needs a surrogate, since his female side is barren. So he chose Mary as his handmaiden, and she accepted. Also notice, that the Father did not overshadow Mary, the Holy Spirit did. That is because they are both the same, the same one. These two are one. Jesus Christ was both the son of man in the flesh, and the Son of God in the Spirit (seed). The Son always did the will of the Father , and in this they were one . Now we have water. Of course I am speaking spiritually. I am sure you were aware of that . Gas can not be seen, and does not have a form . H is a gas, and H is a gas, both are the same one. We notice two as we seperate the two into catagories. God is Spirit , the Holy Spirit, but God is also a Father. Both are the same . O works together with H + H , as O did not come to do his will, but the will of the Father who sent him. Unity = Water.

Which clearly shows us, that O is not God ! Just in "unity" with the Holy Spirit and his Father, who is God.

I hope you enjoyed that ! LOL But how true it is, right ?

Love IN Christ - MM

Last edited by Mysteryman : 02-10-2010 at 06:44 AM.
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  #25  
Old 02-11-2010, 08:37 AM
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Default Re: Difficulties explaining the nature of God

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Originally Posted by prisonchaplain View Post
Mystery, if God created the mystery of human marriage, whereby two become one (and then often many more...), why could He not be the three persons that are the one God? Actually, your example would seem to amplify mine. Muchos gracias.
Excellent point. And do not forget, when the two become one, their love becomes a third. That is why the human family is a representation - albeit an imperfect one - of the perfect family, the thrice-holy Triune God.

As Pope John Paul II said (and I am paraphrasing here): God in His essence is not solitary but family, because in him is Fatherhood, Sonship, and the essence of love which is the Holy Spirt

Boy I sure miss the Pope
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  #26  
Old 02-11-2010, 11:17 AM
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Default Re: Difficulties explaining the nature of God

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Originally Posted by prisonchaplain View Post
Since God is omnipresent, I'm not sure your heaven and earth example is relevent. Concerning this concept of one: One Father, One Son, and One Holy Spirit = One God.
Very good explanation! There can be diversity in oneness. For example, Christians speak of "The Scriptures." However, we recognize them as one whole. Each book individually is a part of the whole but not the whole in itself and yet we can study and read each book in itself.

The same as the difference between organisms and organs. Or say, a three-pack of juice containing three bottles. We can speak of the pack with three bottles as a unity, a whole, one. And yet, there are three bottles.

There is no logical fallacy in the doctrine of the Trinity. If there is, one ought to be able to mention specifically what fallacy it is. The science of logic allows us to discern that.
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  #27  
Old 02-11-2010, 11:24 AM
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Default Re: Difficulties explaining the nature of God

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Originally Posted by Mysteryman View Post
What I find interesting about God, is that he is a God that changes not. That means that He can not trick my mind, by just changing into something or someone different.

The two become one principle is two fold. When Jesus said my Father and I are one. He meant that they are one in agreement with one another. But in marriage, since woman came out from man. The principle is only different, in that, since they were both one, in marriage, they become one again.

We might hear the phrase that the three are one. But if we look a little closer, we find that water fits this theory. But water is not A + A + A = 1

We find that H + H + O, become one, not are one. Whenever we use the phrase "are one", it does not mean that they are the same. It means that the three make up the one in purpose. For instance, God made us body , soul, and spirit. These three are one. But remember that God created man in his own image. Male and female in the one man Adam. Seperate them, and they come back to be one again. Male sperm and female egg (ovum) come together to become one again. Why ? Because at one time they were one.

God is like water, in that we have H + H + O. O - represents the Son of God. It is different than both H's. One H is the Father, and the other H is the Holy Spirit. They are the same , in fact the exact same. This means that The Holy Spirit and The Father are both exactly same . They are never seperate from another. The Father is the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit is the Father. But the Son is different ! The Son was in the bosom of the Father, which means that the "seed" of Christ was within the Father. Now, the Father needs to plant his seed . His female side is barren, which is the Jerusalem above. The Father, who is the Holy Spirit, needs a surrogate, since his female side is barren. So he chose Mary as his handmaiden, and she accepted. Also notice, that the Father did not overshadow Mary, the Holy Spirit did. That is because they are both the same, the same one. These two are one. Jesus Christ was both the son of man in the flesh, and the Son of God in the Spirit (seed). The Son always did the will of the Father , and in this they were one . Now we have water. Of course I am speaking spiritually. I am sure you were aware of that . Gas can not be seen, and does not have a form . H is a gas, and H is a gas, both are the same one. We notice two as we seperate the two into catagories. God is Spirit , the Holy Spirit, but God is also a Father. Both are the same . O works together with H + H , as O did not come to do his will, but the will of the Father who sent him. Unity = Water.

Which clearly shows us, that O is not God ! Just in "unity" with the Holy Spirit and his Father, who is God.

I hope you enjoyed that ! LOL But how true it is, right ?

Love IN Christ - MM
There is no rational coherence here. Things in the natural become as we live in time and space. But the truth is that what we call water exists only in the unity of these three molecules. Water IS only in such unity.

Now, when we talk of the nature of divinity we then talk of eternity. Thus, whatever becomes in eternity, becomes eternally, not in time. So, to say God is Father, Son, Holy Spirit is analogous to water with that proviso; one is an eternal reality and the other a temporal one. After all, all analogies are that, a semblance that allows us to make a point.

Water is water. However it does not exist absent one of the elements: H + H + O. Thus, it does not "trick" your mind to recognize such reality! That God does not change then is not a good reason to reject the Trinity!

Now, the Trinity is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. They share one and the same divine essence. They are not three gods with different essence. The key is simply to understand that for water to be water it needs the three and cannot exist without the three, even if 2 are H and one is O. Thus, something that is ONE can be made of three different parts.

Last edited by SolaVerbumDei : 02-11-2010 at 11:33 AM.
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  #28  
Old 02-11-2010, 11:48 AM
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Default Re: Difficulties explaining the nature of God

Let me say something about the Oneness of God. It is not biblical to say that because God is one then there cannot be diversity in God. Scripture does not say that. Examples:

1. The word for "one" in Deuteronomy 6:4,5 is "echad," and that word can be used to convey unity that has internal diversity or more than one internal components:


1. Gen. 1:5 First day of creation, day and night = 1 day.

2. Gen. 2:24 Man and wife become 1 flesh.

3. Num. 13:23 1 cluster of grapes.

"Echad" is used instead of the Hebrew word "yachid" which means absolute oneness. Example: Gen. 22:2 where God said to Abraham: "Take now your son, your only son, whom you love, Isaac..." Note that this word, "yachid", is never used of God in the Bible.

Additionally, we have the following:

1. "Then God said, 'Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness...'" (Genesis 1:26)

2. "Then the Lord God said, 'Behold the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil...'" (Genesis 3:22)

3. "Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another's speech." (Gen. 11:7)

Note that in Gen. 1:26 that the plural pronouns are used with singular nouns: "God" is the singular subject of the sentence, "image" and "likeness" are singular nouns, in prepositional phrases, referring back to the singular subject. It does not say, "Let us make man in our images, according to our likenesses."

So, it is demonstrated not to be incoherent to speak of God as one in a plurality.
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  #29  
Old 02-11-2010, 11:57 AM
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Default Re: Difficulties explaining the nature of God

It is important to clarify that we DO NOT SAY, God the Father, one person + God the Son,one person + God the Holy Ghost, one person = one person. That truly is an illogical statement, but it is not what Christians are saying.

Christians are not saying 1+1+1=1.


The Athanasian Creed reads:

"We worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons; nor dividing the Substance."

This simple definition means that God is one essence or nature which exists in three Persons. If Christians were saying God is one Person existing in three Persons, or one essence existing in three essences, then the Trinity would indeed be illogical. But that is not what Christians believe.

"Person" and "Essence" are two different things or two different categories of being.

"Person" refers to personality; the individual exercise of intellect, feelings and will.

"Essence" refers to the nature or substance of God.

The three persons share one and the same essence. There are not three separate divine essences.

In human beings personhood and essence are contained in one physical body. One person and one human body are always together, so much so that we use "person" and "human being" interchangeably. But since God is a spiritual being He is not limited to a body as we are.

A simple way to phrase it is that the essence or nature of God is the "what is God" . The Persons of the Godhead are the "how" of that existence. They describe how the one essence of God exists. Again, as God is infinite, his essence is not confined.

This can be described logically, but it cannot be comprehended as God is inefable.
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  #30  
Old 02-11-2010, 12:18 PM
Mysteryman
 
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Default Re: Difficulties explaining the nature of God

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Originally Posted by SolaVerbumDei View Post
It is important to clarify that we DO NOT SAY, God the Father, one person + God the Son,one person + God the Holy Ghost, one person = one person. That truly is an illogical statement, but it is not what Christians are saying.

Christians are not saying 1+1+1=1.


The Athanasian Creed reads:

"We worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons; nor dividing the Substance."

This simple definition means that God is one essence or nature which exists in three Persons. If Christians were saying God is one Person existing in three Persons, or one essence existing in three essences, then the Trinity would indeed be illogical. But that is not what Christians believe.

"Person" and "Essence" are two different things or two different categories of being.

"Person" refers to personality; the individual exercise of intellect, feelings and will.

"Essence" refers to the nature or substance of God.

The three persons share one and the same essence. There are not three separate divine essences.

In human beings personhood and essence are contained in one physical body. One person and one human body are always together, so much so that we use "person" and "human being" interchangeably. But since God is a spiritual being He is not limited to a body as we are.

A simple way to phrase it is that the essence or nature of God is the "what is God" . The Persons of the Godhead are the "how" of that existence. They describe how the one essence of God exists. Again, as God is infinite, his essence is not confined.

This can be described logically, but it cannot be comprehended as God is inefable.
There is no such thing as the "persons of the Godhead" ! Godhead - means - ONE, not many !
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