[prisonchaplain]

Since I started this, let me give my simple understanding of the Trinity.

1. The Father is God. It is He we see mostly in the Old Testament.
2. The Son is God. He receives worship, He is addressed as such by his Father, and, what else can the only begotten Son be.
3. The Holy Spirit is God. This Spirit is more than a power, because he expresses emotion and volition.
4. There is only one God.
5. The three persons are the one God.

Now how three persons can be one God is what trips people up. But each of those five points above come directly from the Bible. So, for Trinitarians, we put them together, and accept what the church has taught for 2000 years.

[WIP]

Originally Posted by prisonchaplain

For example...I'm Trinitarian. I find the Trinity difficult to explain to non-trinitarians, because they get caught with matters that I simply accept. Did you note that the post right after the OP was a treatise on how the Trinity fails to explain God? Perfect example. The most common difficulty I see non-Trinitarians grapple with is how one God can be three persons, and three persons can be one God. BTW, it's 1X1X1=1...not addition.

Surely most of us here have tried to explain their faith's understanding of God's nature, and found that at a particular point, there is some factor that non-members find hard to accept? No?

I think I understand what you're saying, which is why I believe and stated that:

explanation /= understanding;
understanding /= acceptance

The Trinity, technically, cannot be explained at all, correct? It, as you put it, can only be accepted as presented. I understand all the words as you explain it, and the concepts as well, and yet my mind cannot comprehend even the simple 1X1X1=1 analogy where it touches on an actual "being." To my knowledge there are no other natural occurences of such a phenomenon (three distinct beings in one essence), which is why it is a "mystery."

Please correct me if I've misunderstood.

Jesse

Originally Posted by Mark

When people are left to their own devices, this is the result i.e. watered down and/or false teachings... over and over we see people concocting wild theories regarding the Christian faith - all supposedly "grounded in scripture"... first, they throw out the authority of the church (and find scripture to support it)... eventually, they throw traditional marriage out the window (and support it with a "theory") ... and in this case, they throw the Trinity out (supported by some "theory")... what's next?

*I have a theory of my own... some people here don't know as much as they think they do.

Not all scripture are false teachings, Some are the commandment which are the original god words, These are the teaching of Moses & Jesus Christ. Read carefully my analysis above.

Very clear the False theory or the false teaching is 1+1+1 = 1.

The commandment is very clear ...Fear God if you understand the oposite

"Jesus replied " The most important commandment is this " HEAR, O ISRAEL. THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD. Mark 12:29

[prisonchaplain]

Originally Posted by WIP

I think I understand what you're saying, which is why I believe and stated that:

explanation /= understanding;
understanding /= acceptance

The Trinity, technically, cannot be explained at all, correct? It, as you put it, can only be accepted as presented. I understand all the words as you explain it, and the concepts as well, and yet my mind cannot comprehend even the simple 1X1X1=1 analogy where it touches on an actual "being." To my knowledge there are no other natural occurences of such a phenomenon (three distinct beings in one essence), which is why it is a "mystery."

Please correct me if I've misunderstood.

Jesse

You are largely correct. I'd add though that these things can be explained to the satisfaction of those who already believe. People growing up in trinitarian churches probably remember analogies like the egg, triangle, h2o appearing simultaneously as gas, liquid and solid, etc. We saw these and thought, "Oh...OK...I kinda get it." And for most, that was good enough.

Then we encounter non-Trinitarians who are not predisposed to accept our teachings. They are quick to point out where the analogies fail to CONVINCE. And, of course, they are right. The analogies can help a believer understand a bit better, or get a better picture, but they cannot convince those who are uncertain or doubtful.

[prisonchaplain]

Originally Posted by udontnoiroyo

Not all scripture are false teachings, Some are the commandment which are the original god words, These are the teaching of Moses & Jesus Christ. Read carefully my analysis above.

Very clear the False theory or the false teaching is 1+1+1 = 1.

The commandment is very clear ...Fear God if you understand the oposite

"Jesus replied " The most important commandment is this " HEAR, O ISRAEL. THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD. Mark 12:29

You missed the answer. 1+1+1 = 1 is indeed false doctrine. It's also bad math. However, Trinitarians insist it's 1X1X1 = 1. That's a true teaching, and excellent math. Note, three distinct persons, each with their own place in the equation--but they are the one true and living God. We Trinitarians affirm with pride the schema (Duet 6:4) that is quoted in Mark's gospel. Scholars of religion almost universally join Christianity (which is mostly Trinitarian) with Islam and Judaism and one of the three great monotheistic religions in the world.

[WIP]

Originally Posted by prisonchaplain

You are largely correct. I'd add though that these things can be explained to the satisfaction of those who already believe. People growing up in trinitarian churches probably remember analogies like the egg, triangle, h2o appearing simultaneously as gas, liquid and solid, etc. We saw these and thought, "Oh...OK...I kinda get it." And for most, that was good enough.

Then we encounter non-Trinitarians who are not predisposed to accept our teachings. They are quick to point out where the analogies fail to CONVINCE. And, of course, they are right. The analogies can help a believer understand a bit better, or get a better picture, but they cannot convince those who are uncertain or doubtful.

If you don't mind, I would like to hear one or two of the analogies you mentioned. I love analogies which, like parables, bring truths to the feet of the common, yet discerning, man. Please understand that I do want to understand what you believe. I do not ask to gratify a sense of self-righteousness, nor to "expose" some flaw or error in your understanding. And that because, as I've mentioned before, I do not believe that it is your responsibility to convince me—another man—of truth. The witness (the conversions, the change) is God's promise to those who seek, knock, and ask. If you share truth, and I seek to know the truth of it, I trust that God will be good to His promise.

[prisonchaplain]

Trinity Analogies

TRIANGLE: Probably the most classic. Three distinct sides make one God.

EGG: Again, three distinct parts of the egg, to make the egg.

H2O: There is a certain tempature at which water can appear simultaneously as gas, liquid and solid. Each of these is different, and yet the made up of the same elements.

Each of these, and many other attempts at analogies are simply meant to show how each person of the Trinity (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) can have his own personhood, and yet be necessary to comprise God. Critics can easily show where some of these analogies falter, but they do help us picture the idea of the individuality of the three persons, and yet the essential unity of God.

Originally Posted by prisonchaplain

For example...I'm Trinitarian. I find the Trinity difficult to explain to non-trinitarians, because they get caught with matters that I simply accept. Did you note that the post right after the OP was a treatise on how the Trinity fails to explain God? Perfect example. The most common difficulty I see non-Trinitarians grapple with is how one God can be three persons, and three persons can be one God. BTW, it's 1X1X1=1...not addition.

Surely most of us here have tried to explain their faith's understanding of God's nature, and found that at a particular point, there is some factor that non-members find hard to accept? No?

Have you ever consider the concept of "One" ? For, where there is one, there is not two, nor three !

One can not be in two places. One in heaven and one here on earth, That would be two - Not one ! Now I have heard some say that with God all things are possible. Yet, this is true . But consider this, can God lie ? Ooops. Didn't mean to throw your theory as far as the east is from the west. Forgive me please ! Another example would be , all things are possible with God , so that, God can change . Does God change ? Does God lie ?

Is it not true, that "man" changes God and "Man" makes up lies about God ?

[WIP]

Originally Posted by prisonchaplain

Trinity Analogies

TRIANGLE: Probably the most classic. Three distinct sides make one God.

EGG: Again, three distinct parts of the egg, to make the egg.

H2O: There is a certain tempature at which water can appear simultaneously as gas, liquid and solid. Each of these is different, and yet the made up of the same elements.

Each of these, and many other attempts at analogies are simply meant to show how each person of the Trinity (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) can have his own personhood, and yet be necessary to comprise God. Critics can easily show where some of these analogies falter, but they do help us picture the idea of the individuality of the three persons, and yet the essential unity of God.

Thanks. The water analogy is particularly helpful. I remember that physical uniquness of water from school—isn't it at 0 degrees C that all these phases may occur? Anyway, you're right that the analogy can only be taken so far, leaving one at some point needing to accept without a clear understanding that the Trinitarian view is correct. I don't think it was terribly difficult for you to explain.

[prisonchaplain]

Originally Posted by Mysteryman

Have you ever consider the concept of "One" ? For, where there is one, there is not two, nor three !

One can not be in two places. One in heaven and one here on earth, That would be two - Not one !

Since God is omnipresent, I'm not sure your heaven and earth example is relevent. Concerning this concept of one: One Father, One Son, and One Holy Spirit = One God.