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True2Ourselves Forums   > Community Topics > Christianity & Other Religions  > Church Fitness

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  #1  
Old 05-09-2020, 06:42 AM
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Default Church Fitness

Can the faith be over-credentialed?
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  #2  
Old 05-09-2020, 07:45 AM
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Default Re: Church Fitness

I think so, Jesus picked for the most part, simple people for apostles, but people who were capable of great faith, and not always falling back on teachings of others. Likewise today, diploma's and titles mean a bit too much in the earthly church, God wants people who have a greater capacity for faith, and a willingness to serve.
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Knowledge and Wisdom are both good and worth finding, but they also have truly bad downsides, just study the life of Solomon to see the truth of this. Love does not puff up. Perfect Love drives out pride. Faith, Hope, and Love are the greatest of all things we can strive for, and the greatest of these are Love. Proverbs 3:5-6 Trust in the Lord with ALL your heart and lean NOT on your own understanding. In all your ways aknowledge Him and He shall direct your paths.
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  #3  
Old 05-09-2020, 08:53 AM
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Default Re: Church Fitness

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Originally Posted by pryz View Post
Can the faith be over-credentialed?
It can be.
It shouldn't be.
It should have to be.

Into the 6th century of manmade divisions and manmade denominations teaching conflicting contradictory manmade doctrines, unfortunately it needs to be.
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  #4  
Old 05-10-2020, 06:02 AM
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Default Re: Church Fitness

In the common most sense, whether the Elder, Teacher, Deacon, Minister, Bishop and any other unmentioned yet justifiable servant we might have, we know are all only as good as the ‘exceptional’ pattern they maintain (1 Tim 3).

But say by chance there was no furnished oversight to be had, in such a void, precedence is seen taking place among them who are known as the best of the eldest as an appropriate credential,

They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was. (Romans 16:7)

But, at any point there remains the orderly distinction between individuals more correctly drawn to serve than to rule. The greater portion of that responsibility falling on the esteemed occupant himself. Though authority is always at his disposal, alienation should be the reward of anyone disrupting the function of that service. But the disruption would also include interfering with the unity of the Spirit and the fruits thereof.

It seems if there was a defiled exchange that happened within recognition, it first happened to the occupant, possibly others. But if there were any resemblance of those ‘fruits’, the point of restoring that individual would not have let the sun go down till order was again established.

So, fundamentally I don’t think the credential can alone be faulted since God looks on the heart of those who’s eyes are genuinely, earnestly maintaining the letter.

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Old 05-10-2020, 09:23 AM
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Default Re: Church Fitness

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Originally Posted by pryz View Post
In the common most sense, whether the Elder, Teacher, Deacon, Minister, Bishop and any other unmentioned yet justifiable servant we might have, we know are all only as good as the ‘exceptional’ pattern they maintain (1 Tim 3).
Perhaps as pertains to their personal goodness?
Who am I to argue with scripture, or rather, with what the scripture is supposed to mean.

However, I do believe in the Latin phrase Ex opere operato. Are you familiar with that?
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  #6  
Old 05-11-2020, 03:14 AM
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Default Re: Church Fitness

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Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader View Post
I do believe in the Latin phrase Ex opere operato. Are you familiar with that?
ex opere operato
A theological phrase meaning that the act of receiving a sacrament actually confers the promised benefit, such as a baptism actually and literally cleansing one's sins.
If this is your customary use of it, ,No, I was not familiar. Though interesting, is there any inference behind it at all that would relieve layman-thru-oversight responsibility pertaining to any applicable biblical text?

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Old 05-11-2020, 06:49 AM
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Default Re: Church Fitness

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Originally Posted by pryz View Post
ex opere operato
A theological phrase meaning that the act of receiving a sacrament actually confers the promised benefit, such as a baptism actually and literally cleansing one's sins.
If this is your customary use of it, ,No, I was not familiar. Though interesting, is there any inference behind it at all that would relieve layman-thru-oversight responsibility pertaining to any applicable biblical text?
No. It has to do with the holiness of the priest, or the possible lack thereof. What it means is, if your parish priest happens to be a bad sinner, the sacrament still works regardless of the holiness of the priest.

In your previous post you mentioned:

.....the Elder, Teacher, Deacon, Minister, Bishop and any other unmentioned yet justifiable servant we might have, we know are all only as good as the ‘exceptional’ pattern they maintain (1 Tim 3).

ex opere operato means that even if the priest or bishop is a bad person, the sacrament works all the same.

Quote:
1127 Celebrated worthily in faith, the sacraments confer the grace that they signify.48 They are efficacious because in them Christ himself is at work: it is he who baptizes, he who acts in his sacraments in order to communicate the grace that each sacrament signifies. The Father always hears the prayer of his Son’s Church which, in the epiclesis of each sacrament, expresses her faith in the power of the Spirit. As fire transforms into itself everything it touches, so the Holy Spirit transforms into the divine life whatever is subjected to his power.

1128 This is the meaning of the Church’s affirmation49 that the sacraments act ex opere operato (literally: “by the very fact of the action’s being performed”), i.e., by virtue of the saving work of Christ, accomplished once for all. It follows that "the sacrament is not wrought by the righteousness of either the celebrant or the recipient, but by the power of God."50 From the moment that a sacrament is celebrated in accordance with the intention of the Church, the power of Christ and his Spirit acts in and through it, independently of the personal holiness of the minister. Nevertheless, the fruits of the sacraments also depend on the disposition of the one who receives them.

Now, to your post: You said:

layman-thru-oversight responsibility pertaining to any applicable biblical text

As usual, your unique turn of phrase eludes me. I am going to guess that you are making a reference to some belief that my readings of scripture must be approved by the Catholic Church. That is not true and I thought I had dispelled that notion before.

As a matter of percentages, there is an EXTREME few, just a small handful, of scripture passages that have been defined by the Catholic Church. 99% of the Bible has not. We have Bible studies all the time, Catholic book stores sell nice study Bibles and all that.

There is only one thing we cannot do: Read a scripture, any scripture, and come to some doctrinal conclusion that contradicts Catholic doctrine. So if I read the Bible and conclude that I can earn my salvation without God's grace, well then, that would not be acceptable at all. If I read the Bible and conclude that Mary was with child by some neighbor and nor by the Holy Spirit, well then, that would not be acceptable at all either.

I once heard a great analogy: A fence around a backyard allows a child to play freely so that he won't accidental stray into a ditch or something. There is freedom within the boundaries. Likewise a train roars at high speeds as long as it remains confined to its tracks When it goes of the tracks it won't move any more.

Catholic doctrines provide boundaries. God created the heavens and the earth. That is a boundary. Within that boundary you can be a young earther, an old earther, you can accept some variance of evolution, you can reject evolution, whatever. But if you go outside that boundary then you are in danger.
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  #8  
Old 05-12-2020, 04:26 AM
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Default Re: Church Fitness

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Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader View Post
There is only one thing we cannot do: Read a scripture, any scripture, and come to some doctrinal conclusion that contradicts Catholic doctrine..
How is that not designed to reduce the effectiveness of following the Apostle in the teaching by the purity of the Spirit (Galatians 1:16,1 Corinthians 11:1).

Being subject to oversight is brought into obscurity if oversight doesn’t heed the truth to begin with. This is my observation, because based on all of our previous discussions, there most always is some cause for you to back out of running the race the word of God details.

So, to you, the word is made ineffective unless you see it somehow underwritten by the RCC?

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Old 05-12-2020, 05:52 AM
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Default Re: Church Fitness

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Originally Posted by pryz View Post
How is that not designed to reduce the effectiveness of following the Apostle in the teaching by the purity of the Spirit (Galatians 1:16,1 Corinthians 11:1).
LOL! Really? Did you think that question through before posting it?

The Holy Spirit is not the author of confusion!

1 Corinthians 14:33: For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

What I stated before means we all end up on the same page: Your way means confusion, contradictions, and all the differences of opinions that have led to hundreds of protestant denominations, the very divisions that the Apostle finds damnable.

If your way actually worked, then we would all be on the same page doctrinally speaking. But we are not so obviously it doesn't.

In fact, it IS the Holy Spirit who guides "the Apostle" and their successors in the formulation of doctrines, and it is disciples - you and me - who are supposed to learn from the "the Apostle" and their successors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pryz View Post
Being subject to oversight is brought into obscurity if oversight doesn’t heed the truth to begin with
You make a false assumption, that the Catholic Church does not teach the truth. You are in no position to decide the truth. You are a disciple, not a Christ-appointed Apostle. Frankly, you suffer from the sin of Pride: You refuse to submit to that which Jesus established.

Ephesians 4 begins with this:

"As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all."

"Oneness".

And here is the crux:

".....So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and ****n here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming......"

So, we all have different roles to play. But you reject this. You refuse to allow those appointed to their roles to perform their roles. You choose to usurp unto yourself the role of everybody: You are Apostle, prophet, Evangelist, pastor and teacher, all rolled into one. Jesus chose twelve men and gave them authority to teach. But that's no good for you. YOU shall read the Bible and decide for yourself what is right and wrong.

That is the spirit of confusion, not the Holy Spirit.


Quote:
Originally Posted by pryz View Post
So, to you, the word is made ineffective unless you see it somehow underwritten by the RCC?
Jesus is the Word. A book is not the word. There is your grave error.

JESUS is the Word, and the Word lives, head and Body.

Scripture is Divine Revelation, that which has been revealed by God through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. And while scripture is inspired by God, it is MEN who were appointed by Jesus to teach. That is where you err most grievously, not understanding the difference.
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"God in his deepest mystery is not a solitude but a family, since he has in himself fatherhood, sonship and the essence of the family which is love"
- Saint Pope John Paul II
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  #10  
Old 05-13-2020, 02:55 AM
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Default Re: Church Fitness

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Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader View Post
If your way actually worked, then we would all be on the same page doctrinally speaking. But we are not so obviously it doesn't.
Is that what you have gathered from those two references, that it is “my way”? The Holy Spirit was not in such a mode when He spoke through the Apostle, as if it would be alright if we abandon it.

As for your other flared commentary, anyone can see my continued thoughts on the Holy Spirit in the ‘Spirituality’ section. The one thing I don’t think I spoke of is the hyper assumption that it is possible for me to be an Apostle. First off, it is God who distributes and equips, remember? But as for someone claiming to be an Apostle, that is not true since Paul said he was the ‘last’.

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