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  #1  
Old 02-11-2015, 07:23 PM
pryz's Avatar
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Default Muslim vs Christian Apologist

A Muslim vs a Christian apologist on Jesus’ teachings in a university setting I’m assuming.

A video starting off with a Muslim student entering the Q&A with an overview contention that the “Code” Jesus gave was not universally sufficient for our lives and ultimately to “fix” the world. After the response concerning the law Jesus gave being on a “higher plain”, the student singles this out as, I’m assuming unique, or simply wanting to capitalize. For he responds:

Quote:
“The thing you just mentioned is the reason why there are 1001 Churches and Denominations around”.
Could Ravi have improved upon in any way, his responses?

A brief recording lacking quality but an interesting exchange.

Muslim vs Christian Apologist
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  #2  
Old 02-11-2015, 07:56 PM
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Default Re: Muslim vs Christian Apologist

I really like Ravi. He admitted it was a good question, then he went on to describe the many different denominations in Islam, not making it any better, and also said that being a christian has little to do with what denomination, but our personal relationship with Christ, and an adherent to historical christianity, even if faulty at agreeing in all things. i would go on to say that we dont kill christians of other faiths, and rape their women, or hate those different (for the most part), but simply agree to disagree.
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Knowledge and Wisdom are both good and worth finding, but they also have truly bad downsides, just study the life of Solomon to see the truth of this. Love does not puff up. Perfect Love drives out pride. Faith, Hope, and Love are the greatest of all things we can strive for, and the greatest of these are Love. Proverbs 3:5-6 Trust in the Lord with ALL your heart and lean NOT on your own understanding. In all your ways aknowledge Him and He shall direct your paths.
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Old 02-11-2015, 08:02 PM
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Default Re: Muslim vs Christian Apologist

Ravi is a good Christian apologist. However, on this point, it is less than sufficient. He starts out with "well you guys are divided too" (paraphrase). That is not a good starting point. However, Ravi has rejected Roman Catholicism and Orthodoxy, which are the only two ones that state "we should be together." Protestantism states "it is ok that we are apart." Therefore, the only response that Ravi has is the response that he gave. While what he said is true that unity does not mean uniformity, the reality is that Protestantism rejects unity. It is for denominationalism by its very creed. This does not in any way reflect upon the efficacy of Christ's teachings. In my opinion, until Protestants start saying "it should not be this way" rather than "I am starting my own denomination down the street because that is part of our tradition as Protestants," then Muslims will have an excuse not to adhere to Christ.
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Old 02-12-2015, 06:39 AM
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Default Re: Muslim vs Christian Apologist

Quote:
Originally Posted by Linsinbigler View Post
Ravi is a good Christian apologist. However, on this point, it is less than sufficient. He starts out with "well you guys are divided too" (paraphrase). That is not a good starting point. However, Ravi has rejected Roman Catholicism and Orthodoxy, which are the only two ones that state "we should be together." Protestantism states "it is ok that we are apart." Therefore, the only response that Ravi has is the response that he gave. While what he said is true that unity does not mean uniformity, the reality is that Protestantism rejects unity. It is for denominationalism by its very creed. This does not in any way reflect upon the efficacy of Christ's teachings. In my opinion, until Protestants start saying "it should not be this way" rather than "I am starting my own denomination down the street because that is part of our tradition as Protestants," then Muslims will have an excuse not to adhere to Christ.

Just what is it which you believe Protestants are divided on so badly, which makes it necessary for the statement, "Roman Catholicism and Orthodoxy, are the only two ones that state "we should be together?"

If what you say is true, both believing there should not be division, then there ought not to be a division between Catholicism and Orthodoxy.

Were not talking about an earthly Church Denomination without division, Christ speaks of this mystical Body of Believers, through the unity of the Holy Spirit.

An example of division which Jesus Himself didn't think was to drastic.

Luke 9:49,50
49) And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.
50) And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.


Paul also speaks of differences, (divisions) in preaching not forbidding them.

Philippians 1:15-18
15) Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will:
16) The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds:
17) But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel.
18) What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.

So, what is it "WE" are calling division?

JIM

.
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Old 02-12-2015, 09:43 PM
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Default Re: Muslim vs Christian Apologist

What Fr Harry has described is honestly news to me with the exception of Ravi’s exchange here. If possible, on behalf of all my protestant minded who feel it “shouldn’t be”, so do we. Amen!

I eat, drank and slept Protestantism for many years, and if I heard those words of division said of my denom in the first-half of them, I doubt the dedication I had for it would let me hear and receive it without distraction. Looking back, I just wasn’t conditioned for it. I mean, who could argue with the unity WE had?

What I have found so much of the time is Protestantism referencing toward any assoc to the unity of the Body of Christ is guarded and sometimes heatedly, more on exclusivity rather than real unity. You recall Ravi’s comment didn’t you when he light-heartedly included whatever “denomination or abomination” (laughs) you belong to? It’s bombshells like this that continues to devalue Jesus’ desire to the Father, “that they may be one” (Jn 17:21). That comment of his wasn’t meant for a cult or derelict sect, but a direct and deliberate shot for the "church".

The more the Lord would reveal to me this fault, the more sensitive I became to such passages as “if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it” (I Cor 12:26). I no longer saw it from the mighty regional offices of denominational authority on down, but rather a release from the petty popularizations that divide to recognize those as my very dear brothers and sisters here, or over there.

I know there are exceptions in some numbers and orgs to this trend, but the gate hasn't really started to close yet.

Mike.
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Old 02-13-2015, 09:30 AM
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Default Re: Muslim vs Christian Apologist

Quote:
Originally Posted by Linsinbigler View Post
Ravi is a good Christian apologist. However, on this point, it is less than sufficient. He starts out with "well you guys are divided too" (paraphrase). That is not a good starting point.
Not a good starting point? Well I am no debater, so I cannot decide that he did not do it the best way. What he did was show, I believe, although he may not have specifically said it, that men are the problem and have always been the problem.

Who is right and who is wrong? God is right. Anyone who fails to line up with God in any measure is wrong in the measure that he fails to line up. Only God, when it comes down to it, is able to judge what lines up and what does not. Sometimes God shows a failure to a person regarding another person or regarding himself. But... if you and I are not given such knowledge then we may speak some good sounding words (to the natural ear?), but are they not really as "sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal"?


Quote:
However, Ravi has rejected Roman Catholicism and Orthodoxy, which are the only two ones that state "we should be together." Protestantism states "it is ok that we are apart."
Indeed, Jesus said these words:

"Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder." Matt 19:6

But consider what God who never changes had done:

The answer that "we should be together" is not in itself enough, is it? Surely the workers on the tower of Babel were together, but failed to please God. God's judgment at Babel was to put them "apart" so that they no longer could effectively communicate their "right ways"" or their "wrong ways" to one another.


Quote:
Therefore, the only response that Ravi has is the response that he gave. While what he said is true that unity does not mean uniformity, the reality is that Protestantism rejects unity.
What is the difference between the two: unity and uniformity? The former perhaps is what is on the inside while the latter is the way people make themselves look on the outside. If this is so, then the unity on the inside could or should make people uniform on the outside. Just because it comes from the inside does not make it always right, does it?

Jesus made it clear that for even the kingdom of satan to stand it parts could not be divided.


Quote:
It is for denominationalism by its very creed. This does not in any way reflect upon the efficacy of Christ's teachings. In my opinion, until Protestants start saying "it should not be this way" rather than "I am starting my own denomination down the street because that is part of our tradition as Protestants," then Muslims will have an excuse not to adhere to Christ.
People always have found excuses not to do what is right. This has been true within Judaism prior to the sacrifice of Jesus and after it to the current date. The same has been so within Catholicism (Roman), as well as within Orthodoxy, as well as within Protestantism, as well as within Islam, as well as within almost everywhere else men have supposedly or really stood.

There are, I am certain some within each of these groups who have moved more toward Christ than away from him, but even this very thread shows me that the problem ultimately is man himself as it always has been without regard to which group he does, or does not, belong. I, of course, do not exclude myself from the problem of man.

Jesus did not stand up for one of the existing sects (Pharisee, Sadducee, etc,) rather than another one. He said:

"Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not." Matt 24:23

We can pick apart those words and say that my usage is wrong, that I have taken it in the wrong context and given it the wrong meaning, but consider what it is that people do in most, and probably in all groups, with the Christian label or the Catholic or the Orthodox or the Muslim label.

Do not the words penned by Solomon still apply to the ways of men even in and with regard to any of their church or religious affiliations?

"Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts." Prov 21:2
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Old 02-13-2015, 04:50 PM
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Default Re: Muslim vs Christian Apologist

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lookinforacity View Post
Just what is it which you believe Protestants are divided on so badly, which makes it necessary for the statement, "Roman Catholicism and Orthodoxy, are the only two ones that state "we should be together?"

If what you say is true, both believing there should not be division, then there ought not to be a division between Catholicism and Orthodoxy.

Were not talking about an earthly Church Denomination without division, Christ speaks of this mystical Body of Believers, through the unity of the Holy Spirit.

An example of division which Jesus Himself didn't think was to drastic.

Luke 9:49,50
49) And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.
50) And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.


Paul also speaks of differences, (divisions) in preaching not forbidding them.

Philippians 1:15-18
15) Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will:
16) The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds:
17) But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel.
18) What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.

So, what is it "WE" are calling division?

JIM

.
I think that you have misunderstood my point. Ravi is on record for calling Roman Catholicism and Orthodoxy "cults" (One time he used the phrase "dangerous cults"). I have been consistent that the insufficiency of Protestant ecclesiology is in no way reflexive of the quality of a Christian that happens to be Protestant. Truth be told the problems of pro-sectarian ecclesiology simply stem from the fact that Protestants don't think much about ecclesiology. Dispensationalists think more about eschatology (and spend more time on it), for example, with ecclesiology being bottom on the list. Your proof-texting does not fit, as opposing verses can be found, such as Matthew 12.30 "Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters." Jesus' dispensation to those who are not among the disciples is no defense of denominationalism. We see this in Mark 9:
38 Now John answered Him, saying, “Teacher, we saw someone who does not follow us casting out demons in Your name, and we forbade him because he does not follow us.” 39 But Jesus said, “Do not forbid him, for no one who works a miracle in My name can soon afterward speak evil of Me." The reason for the dispensation is because of a future conversion to walking with Christ and the Apostles.
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Old 02-13-2015, 05:02 PM
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Default Re: Muslim vs Christian Apologist

I found this about Him at Catholic answers. They didnt think he was anti-catholic at the least. I didnt think he was targeting traditional faith when he said that, I thought he was just saying that some faiths associated with christianity were kinda crazy, which is certainly true of some of the protestant faiths.

Background on Ravi Zacharias - Catholic Answers Forums
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Knowledge and Wisdom are both good and worth finding, but they also have truly bad downsides, just study the life of Solomon to see the truth of this. Love does not puff up. Perfect Love drives out pride. Faith, Hope, and Love are the greatest of all things we can strive for, and the greatest of these are Love. Proverbs 3:5-6 Trust in the Lord with ALL your heart and lean NOT on your own understanding. In all your ways aknowledge Him and He shall direct your paths.
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Old 02-13-2015, 06:16 PM
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Default Re: Muslim vs Christian Apologist

Quote:
Originally Posted by pryz View Post
What Fr Harry has described is honestly news to me with the exception of Ravi’s exchange here. If possible, on behalf of all my protestant minded who feel it “shouldn’t be”, so do we. Amen!

I eat, drank and slept Protestantism for many years, and if I heard those words of division said of my denom in the first-half of them, I doubt the dedication I had for it would let me hear and receive it without distraction. Looking back, I just wasn’t conditioned for it. I mean, who could argue with the unity WE had?

What I have found so much of the time is Protestantism referencing toward any assoc to the unity of the Body of Christ is guarded and sometimes heatedly, more on exclusivity rather than real unity. You recall Ravi’s comment didn’t you when he light-heartedly included whatever “denomination or abomination” (laughs) you belong to? It’s bombshells like this that continues to devalue Jesus’ desire to the Father, “that they may be one” (Jn 17:21). That comment of his wasn’t meant for a cult or derelict sect, but a direct and deliberate shot for the "church".

The more the Lord would reveal to me this fault, the more sensitive I became to such passages as “if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it” (I Cor 12:26). I no longer saw it from the mighty regional offices of denominational authority on down, but rather a release from the petty popularizations that divide to recognize those as my very dear brothers and sisters here, or over there.

I know there are exceptions in some numbers and orgs to this trend, but the gate hasn't really started to close yet.

Mike.
Exactly. I think until we can all agree that denominationalism is wrong (not God's will), then our continued justification of division to those who otherwise would be Christians but object to the division stands as an obstruction to their salvation (in this case the Muslim who is asking Ravi these things). We can speak of "spiritual unity" but Christ speaks of full unity, not pseudo-justified sectarianism. IMO, Ravi should have answered that these things should not be so. Instead, he says that "well you guys are divided too." That kind of response will drive the Muslim to atheism, not to Christianity. And I agree that the "denomination-abomination" comment (especially in context of other talks he has given) was a shot across the bow of fellow Christians.
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Old 02-13-2015, 06:30 PM
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Default Re: Muslim vs Christian Apologist

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulheart3 View Post
I found this about Him at Catholic answers. They didnt think he was anti-catholic at the least. I didnt think he was targeting traditional faith when he said that, I thought he was just saying that some faiths associated with christianity were kinda crazy, which is certainly true of some of the protestant faiths.

Background on Ravi Zacharias - Catholic Answers Forums
He is a little softer now on the topic than he was a few years ago. Yet, even in one of his talks last year when asked if he views Roman Catholicism as a cult, he did deny it. He put it rather politely, though, that in his view one can be a good Christian and a bad Catholic. He avoids saying "Catholic" or "Orthodox" at all when he can. Rather, he referred a few years back to a person (who was Roman Catholic and became evangelical) as one who was delivered from a "cult" to a "true" relationship with Jesus. Despite all of this, he has an obvious love for the Lord and many edifying things to say.
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