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True2Ourselves Forums   > Community Topics > Bible Chat  > Willful sin, examples

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  #1  
Old 11-06-2010, 07:51 AM
Hupomone10's Avatar
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Default Willful sin, examples

There has been much discussion recently regarding willful sin, and sins that aren't, but without defining it or giving examples.

I wish to throw this thread open to all to identify specific examples of sins that are willful and those that are not.

If we do not define our terms, then I trust that all can clearly see that our terms are useless...

Thanks ahead of time for your participation. I think this one is necessary at this point if we are going to approach this issue honestly and not fool ourselves.

Blessings,
Hupomone (Bill)
__________________
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"The two basic truths to be learned in spiritual progress are: the bankruptcy of self; our riches in Christ."

"The price of birth is His death for us; the price of growth is our death with Him."

- Miles Stanford
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  #2  
Old 11-06-2010, 08:51 PM
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Default Re: Willful sin, examples

[Much of the first part of this post was previously posted on Gideon's thread regarding willful sin]

Willful sin means premeditated sin. In the modern courtroom of the United States conviction of 1st degree [premeditated] murder carries a worse punishment than does manslaughter, even though the end result for the victim was the same. Similarly, in the Roman Catholic Church the penalty is more severe for a "mortal" sin than it is for a "venial" sin.

God has always hated sin, but He has not and does not treat all sins the same.

"If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it." I John 5:16

Without going through a lot of scripture, I will say that I believe that a sin "unto death" can only occur when a person knows exactly what God requires of him in a given situation, but he goes ahead and deliberately disobeys God anyway. A person who really does such a thing makes himself what scripture calls a reprobate in the eyes of God.

The reason that a man usually cannot make final judgments against another man who commits any sin is because he does not know the extent of the other man's knowledge, nor does he know the other man's heart. God does!

The case of Ananias and Saphira is given to us in Acts chapter 5 as an example of someone who committed such an unforgivable sin... aganist the Holy Ghost.

Some who have never believed in God could hardly ever commit this kind of sin, no matter what evils they may have done. This does not mean that they will defintely be saved. It means rather, that they still have an opportunity available to repent of their sins.

Some people who have beliefs that are in error may commit sin as a result of their erroneous beliefs, but while they remain in ignorance, those sins would not be "unto death". In other words, there would still be room for repentance for them.

In the Old Testament, there was no forgiveness available under the law for willful or premeditated sin. Natural Israelites committing that kind of sin were cut off from Israel and the punishment was death.

For sins of ignorance in the Old Testament there were prescribed sacrifices to atone for the sins once they were identified as being sins.
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  #3  
Old 11-06-2010, 08:53 PM
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Default Re: Willful sin, examples

To commit sin against better knowledge and ability in jesus name
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Old 11-06-2010, 09:09 PM
Gideon
 
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Default Re: Willful sin, examples

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hupomone10 View Post
There has been much discussion recently regarding willful sin, and sins that aren't, but without defining it or giving examples.

I wish to throw this thread open to all to identify specific examples of sins that are willful and those that are not.

If we do not define our terms, then I trust that all can clearly see that our terms are useless...

Thanks ahead of time for your participation. I think this one is necessary at this point if we are going to approach this issue honestly and not fool ourselves.

Blessings,
Hupomone (Bill)
May I put forth an example? What of Ananias and Saphira? Would this not qualify as willful sin?

I would suspect if you polled most Christians today, they would actually, off the record, not judge this to be a grievous sin. Most would say, I believe. that they know others who have done far worse. Would you agree with this assessment?

Ok, back to Ananias. The church was in full ****n Holy Spirit anointed revival. 5,000 had been added to the flock after Peter's first sermon. As we are told that there were not many that were rich among them, I think we can assume there were probably a lot of the poor that joined the church, yet the spirit was so outpoured that men who had earthly goods sold what they had, willingly, and handed over the money to Peter and the disciples for the necessity of the poor mong them. Love was everywhere.

So here comes Ananias and Saphira, who owned some land, and sold it. They kept some of the money back but told the disciples that they had given all to the work of God.

Now their sin was not greed, for they did not have to sell the land at all. Peter even said that after they sold it, they still could have kept part of the money back for themselves. And they did exactly that, but tried to convince others that they had given all by lying, willingly.

We all know the end of the story. Ananias willingly chose to lie and paid the ultimate price for it. Saphira was then given her chance to set the record straight and she too willingly chose to try to deceive the leaders of the early church. She joined her husband.

Friends, this story ought to do more than just get our attention as to willing sin. We would like to convince ourselves that willing sin is some huge, evil sin that only the worst of mankind could commit. Surely it cannot mean simply being convicted by God's spirit that a certain act is sinful for us and we willfully ignore this prompting of our God conscience and give into it anyway, can it??

We think God somehow winks at our willful sin because of the blood of Christ that was shed for us. We would be wrong. The word says that the days of God winking at sin are over. We are more accountable, not less, for attempting to continue in sin that grace may abound. The word clearly tells us that when we do this, we crucify the son of God afresh. Do we have any idea what this means?

The Bible tells us that after Ananaias and Saphira, great fear fell on them all. Can you imagine what they were thinking? Can you imagine how they were searching their own hearts for areas of sin that they might be harboring, trying to keep it from the eyes of God. None then was saying "God understands, we are only human."

So why are men today not struck down for their willing sin, which is everywhere among us? We must understand that the power of the spirit, the spirit of holiness, was all over them. The church was walking in a level of purity and anointing we have never experienced. We ought to fall down on our faces and thank God for His patience and His love for us, for in truth, He would owe Ananias and Saphira an apology if He did not strike us down as well. But the spirit in the church today is barely a trickle right now and unbelief is so rampant that few even believe God wants us to walk above the sins of the flesh, let alone will empower us to do so.

Brothers and sisters, our God is long suffering, but He is now opening up the eyes of His children in these last days and the trickle of the spirit is about to become a mighty river of the spirit, and the day is coming that our willful sins will receive their just due just as Ananias and Saphira did.

What is the balance point in the scriptures to this unyieldingness of God toward sin? We have been taught that God is easy on our sins now. We have gotten so comfortabe with them that they simply do not bother us much, when in truth, we ought to be wetting our pants in fear. If God is this unyielding in willingly lying, which we are all guilty of, how can we serve such a hard God?

The answer brings a smile to my face, because with the spirit fully outpoured, God has also promised to cause us to obey Him, to change us into the likeness of His son, where He is the potter responsible for us, and we can remain the clay. He promises to make sure that our sin natures are replaced with new ones that bear good fruit to God, not bad. That is more than good news. That is simply amazing.

We are in the process of being awakened to righteousness. The church will again be clothed with white raiment. We will, as the bride of Christ, be found without any spot or any wrinkle. This is not theoretical goodness, but a people so filled with the spirit of God that to even contemplate willfully sinning against the one who died for us would make us want to die instead.

Right now, many will not understand or accept this. I understand that. Many will scoff and not believe. But the heat of God's spirit will continue to increase and as it does, what we have taken for granted in our lives as a "necessary part of our humanity"....lustful looks, dallying in drugs and alcohol, willful gossip and mean spiritedness, avarice and greed in the wake of great human need, all these will finally appear as they are...sins that put Christ on the cross to suffer beyond measure. God has, in His grace, provided a bridge to not only forgiveness but also to holy character through the new nature He offers each of us. Jesus wants to live in us, fighting our battle for us. Are we willing to let Him?

May His spirit be gentle in awakening our drunken spirits, intoxicated so to sin in our lives that we do not see that we are dangling over hell by the string. But that string is the love of God for us and it is time we responded in the only way that love deserves, with everything within us given back to Him. Live bones, live.

Blessings,

Bruce
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  #5  
Old 11-06-2010, 09:39 PM
Josiah
 
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Default Re: Willful sin, examples

.


My own personal perspective on this (ain't saying it's dogmatic fact, lol)....


Sin is a spiritual "disease" deep, deep in our hearts. In a spiritual sense, you might say in our figurative "DNA." It is self-centered, it is unloving/uncaring, it is disjointed to God - His heart and will. It is a sickness, a disease. It is a "bentness," a "brokenness."

I HAVE this sinfulness perpetually and constantly. But I do not display such perpetually or constantly. I may have a cold. If I take enough meds, if I control myself well enough - I may not caugh or sneeze, but I still have the cold, only no symptoms of such at this moment.

The "acting out" of the disease is what in theology is called "actual sins." I prefer the expression "actualized sin." Such may be by thought, word or deed. It may be by omission (not doing as I should) or comission (doing what I should not). It may be intentional or it may be wholly unintentional - but such makes no difference to the definition: It is still a fruit of my sinfulness, it is my disease acting out displaying itself. It is no less "actualized sin" simply because I did not KNOWINGLY do it. If a policeman stops me for speeding, I was speeding - whether I intended to or not, whether I was aware of such or not.


IMHO, what is being confused here is God's RESPOND to such. While I prefer to think of God's response always and only in terms of Law and Gospel - pure and whole - I DO think there is SOME credence to the idea that God's temporal punishment may give intent and severity into account. To me, all those BORING chapters of the Law in Leviticus, etc., make that credible: the punishment is not equal, God does seem to have a sense of severity and it does seem to afford greater punishment if such was intentional. I suspect this is TEMPORAL, civil, here and now, and perhaps of little significance in terms of eternity or DIVINE punishment. But in any case, it doesn't make me less sinful (it's in my DNA, lol) or my actualization any less significant. In fact, to ME, the "danger" is perhaps GREATER for he who does well than it is for me. I KNOW my fault, my own terrible fault - and it keeps me on my knees and before His thrown of grace. He who does well can become the Pharisee in Jesus' parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector. There's SOMETHING "good" in knowing the depravity in me.



Just MY half cent.


Pax


- Josiah





.
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  #6  
Old 11-06-2010, 10:06 PM
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Default Re: Willful sin, examples

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hupomone10 View Post
.......identify specific examples of sins that are willful......
Road rage. I have given in to that one.

"Oh, that guy cut me off? I'll show him!!"
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  #7  
Old 11-07-2010, 01:37 AM
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Default Re: Willful sin, examples

Thanks for your input thus far. I'm getting ready for night shift, so I'm up late.

For willful sins, so far we have:
- Road rage,

- Lying: specifically, giving fellow believers the impression your intentions
are serving God when they are actually partly serving self (and because
service to God is involved, this is lying to God as well),

- Having knowledge and ability to serve Christ and not doing so,

- willful gossip (is there any other kind?)

- greed

and some excellent philosophizing.

I love to read ideas, and they are good, but I would like examples. the actual sins. The philosophy doesn't matter if we can't recognize what is willful and what is not. And if we have never asked ourselves the question, I guarantee you we can't tell the difference because we're not really thinking about it.

It's my observation that Christians philosophize about issues like this a lot more than they think of practical examples. And because of this, would we really recognize willful sin if it hit us in the face? Maybe not.

Person 1: "Did you know that if you commits acts that are red hodgepodge you will split the gates of hell wide open? But acts of blue hodgepodge are unintentional, maybe not a sin at all."

Person 2: "Ok, what is red hodgepodge, and what is blue hodgepodge?"

Person 1: "Don't worry about it; you'll just know."

Person 2: "So you're saying it's subjective, dependent on what each person thinks, and there's no definition?"

Person 1: "Correct."

Person 2: "I have an idea. Why don't we look it up and define the terms?"

Person 1: "Knowing specifically what they are is not important; it's just the concept that's important. If I don't define it, I'm not guilty of it. I'd rather just go with what I feel, and I don't feel I'm commiting red hodgpodge. I'd like to keep it that way."

Person 2: "That sounds kinda like the ostritch sticking his head in the sand to hide from enemies. I thought you said you could go to hell for red hodgpodge?"

Person 1: "This conversation is not blessing my spirit."
__________________
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"The two basic truths to be learned in spiritual progress are: the bankruptcy of self; our riches in Christ."

"The price of birth is His death for us; the price of growth is our death with Him."

- Miles Stanford

Last edited by Hupomone10 : 11-07-2010 at 01:41 AM.
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  #8  
Old 11-07-2010, 03:20 AM
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Default Re: Willful sin, examples

I mentioned in the OP also sins that are not willful sins.

It would be easier if you will list examples of sins that are not willful ones:



______
__________________
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"The two basic truths to be learned in spiritual progress are: the bankruptcy of self; our riches in Christ."

"The price of birth is His death for us; the price of growth is our death with Him."

- Miles Stanford
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  #9  
Old 11-07-2010, 09:02 AM
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Default Re: Willful sin, examples

When a person has as part of his Christian belief a doctrine that is definitely wrong in God's eyes, and the person acts and speaks based on that erroneous belief, he is committing sin but it would not be a willful sin. When and if the person becomes aware of the error of his belief then he will need to repent.
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Old 11-07-2010, 09:23 AM
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Default Re: Willful sin, examples

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amadeus View Post
When a person has as part of his Christian belief a doctrine that is definitely wrong in God's eyes, and the person acts and speaks based on that erroneous belief, he is committing sin but it would not be a willful sin. When and if the person becomes aware of the error of his belief then he will need to repent.
I agree in theory. But are you saying it is not a voluntary belief? For that is the basic meaning of the word in the verse that seems to be the sole scriptural reference for this differentiation between sins.

If we see it as voluntary belief in the face of knowledge to the contrary, then I agree with you brother, and it becomes voluntary sin once God's Word has been presented to the contrary.

Don't know where to go with this, but that is in essence how Thankful sees it when he presents the 1 John verse, that once he's presented what God's Word says, that "whoever is born of God does not commit sin", if we reject that it is a willful sin.

However, I put that one down as a possibility for both sides:

WILLFUL SINS _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ NON-WILLFUL SINS
False beliefs with knowledge _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ false beliefs without knowledge
__________________
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"The two basic truths to be learned in spiritual progress are: the bankruptcy of self; our riches in Christ."

"The price of birth is His death for us; the price of growth is our death with Him."

- Miles Stanford
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