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  #1  
Old 08-31-2009, 09:55 PM
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Default Kingdom of God And Kingdom of Heaven

I curious to know what my beloved brothers and sisters in Christ think about this topic.

John the baptist and Jesus both started their ministries teaching and preaching about the kingdom. Since out savior started His ministry with this subject it must be very important. It is only in the gospel of Mathew that both kingdoms are mentioned. Many bible scholars say there the same but in my study of and on since 1987 I find that there not the same. After all God did allow the nation of Israel to be divided into two kingdoms and yet both were his people. Likewise the gospel of Mathew points out two kingdoms and yet both are his people. The kingdom of heaven includes believers and unbelievers, the wheat and the tares. Now the kingdom of God on the other hand we find a little more information. The gospel of John states in Ch. 3:3 that unless one is born again they can not even SEE! the kingdom of God. then in verse 5 of that same ch. in John we find that a person must be born of water and of the spirit to enter the kingdom of God. So there seems to be a difference between thee two kingdoms. What do you think? Bible references only please, thank you so much for reading, God bless.

Servant
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  #2  
Old 09-02-2009, 06:58 PM
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Default Re: Kingdom of God And Kingdom of Heaven

This is something that I have heard previously, but I have never really studied it thoroughly. I would be interested in anything additional that you have to offer on it. Thanks,
John,
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  #3  
Old 09-02-2009, 07:50 PM
diebamted21
 
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Default Re: Kingdom of God And Kingdom of Heaven

If you hunt I am sure you will find that at least two of the Gospels record the same mention of Christ's words, with one using the phrase Kingdom of God and the other using the phrase Kingdom of Heaven.

Personally I consider attempts to play 'clever clogs' with the Christian faith by making a meal out of such ambiguities and also by straining over amateur, or even professional, opinion regarding Greek words used in manuscripts, the originals of which have all been lost, to be perverse.

In one instance the use of the term Kingdom of Heaven was 'justified' and in the other the use of the term Kingdom of God was 'appropriate'.

The Church of the Justified Kingdom is sufficienly different from the Church of the Appropriate Kingdom for members of the one denomination to preclude members of the other from fellowship at 'The Lord's Table'.

I have heard it said that in America alone there are 30,000 different denominations......make that 30,002.

If we are to be persistent in seeking a perversion headache then why not attempt to unravel the fact that there are three completely different Greek words used throughout the New Testament which are each loosely translated into 'hell' and not one of them is used in John 3:16 to describe the alternative to 'Everlasting Life'.

Mike.

Last edited by diebamted21 : 09-02-2009 at 08:11 PM.
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Old 09-04-2009, 06:24 PM
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Default Re: Kingdom of God And Kingdom of Heaven

Quote:
Originally Posted by Servant View Post
I curious to know what my beloved brothers and sisters in Christ think about this topic.

John the baptist and Jesus both started their ministries teaching and preaching about the kingdom. Since out savior started His ministry with this subject it must be very important. It is only in the gospel of Mathew that both kingdoms are mentioned. Many bible scholars say there the same but in my study of and on since 1987 I find that there not the same. After all God did allow the nation of Israel to be divided into two kingdoms and yet both were his people. Likewise the gospel of Mathew points out two kingdoms and yet both are his people. The kingdom of heaven includes believers and unbelievers, the wheat and the tares. Now the kingdom of God on the other hand we find a little more information. The gospel of John states in Ch. 3:3 that unless one is born again they can not even SEE! the kingdom of God. then in verse 5 of that same ch. in John we find that a person must be born of water and of the spirit to enter the kingdom of God. So there seems to be a difference between thee two kingdoms. What do you think? Bible references only please, thank you so much for reading, God bless.

Servant
Perhaps you'll tell us more as to why you see them as different?
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Why are we here, what's life all about? Is God really real, or is there some doubt? Well tonight we're going to sort it all out: For tonight it's the meaning of life" Not Finished Yet
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  #5  
Old 09-04-2009, 07:28 PM
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Default Re: Kingdom of God And Kingdom of Heaven

Quote:
Originally Posted by diebamted21 View Post
If you hunt I am sure you will find that at least two of the Gospels record the same mention of Christ's words, with one using the phrase Kingdom of God and the other using the phrase Kingdom of Heaven.

Personally I consider attempts to play 'clever clogs' with the Christian faith by making a meal out of such ambiguities and also by straining over amateur, or even professional, opinion regarding Greek words used in manuscripts, the originals of which have all been lost, to be perverse.

In one instance the use of the term Kingdom of Heaven was 'justified' and in the other the use of the term Kingdom of God was 'appropriate'.

The Church of the Justified Kingdom is sufficienly different from the Church of the Appropriate Kingdom for members of the one denomination to preclude members of the other from fellowship at 'The Lord's Table'.

I have heard it said that in America alone there are 30,000 different denominations......make that 30,002.

If we are to be persistent in seeking a perversion headache then why not attempt to unravel the fact that there are three completely different Greek words used throughout the New Testament which are each loosely translated into 'hell' and not one of them is used in John 3:16 to describe the alternative to 'Everlasting Life'.

Mike.
Mike, don't get yourself in a knot. I will not respond to any of your posts any more when unsolicited. I won't even tell you where I think you are wrong right now, because I am sure you don't care. But underhanded insults and getting to the root of the greek text, (which, although the only original manuscripts we have are a few 1st century fragments, the original words we have by the agreement of isolated dispersed texts) is not "perverse."

Last edited by Linsinbigler : 09-04-2009 at 07:31 PM.
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  #6  
Old 09-05-2009, 06:04 AM
diebamted21
 
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Default Re: Kingdom of God And Kingdom of Heaven

Fr. Harry,

I’m clearly rubbing you up the wrong way these days and I can only guess that I’m hitting a raw nerve without realising what it is that might make you so sensitive.

Let me give you my bottom line.

Having emerged 50 years ago from the most horrendous Church break up in a denomination that had ostensibly been more scripturally discerning than anything imaginable, only to find complete abandonment of everything that they had taught me once personalities got at loggerheads, I embarked on a gradual retreat from what I was being cynical about in the post to which you responded.

I now emphasise a faith that, for me, has to be utterly pertinent to the widest possible range of folk right down to the most simple of childlike souls.

Many times I will exhort that we should walk hand in hand with God in the simplest of childlike faith and trust, quoting hymns like “the trivial round, and the common task should furnish all we seek or ask” plus sayings like “Whatsoever falleth to thy hand to be done, do it with all thy might, as unto the Lord” plus ‘contentment’ scriptures such as “I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content” plus “of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh. Let us therefore hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man” etc., etc.,

Hence, when I read things that remind me of the destruction that I first so painfully experienced at the hand of those wishing to complicate the faith that I now perceive to essentially be one of simplicity I admit to becoming extremely cynical.

I hope you can at least understand, if not with approval, where I am coming from.

Mike
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  #7  
Old 09-06-2009, 08:45 AM
diebamted21
 
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Default Re: Kingdom of God And Kingdom of Heaven

Lennon,

Fr Harry, probably rightly, took exception to my response to your OP, and while he’s been away it sank out of sight so he probably hasn’t yet noticed my explanation.

In the meantime, I admit my response was cynical, not principally because I see both terms as being nothing more than alternative descriptions of the same thing, but because my long and painful experience of bible nit picking has taught me of the futility of straining at interpretational differences when, in all likelihood, no difference exists.

But, to revive the topic, let me make a positive response by giving my opinion of the deep significance of what, to me, both terms equally describe in referring to the kingdom of God/Heaven.

And it is found in Matthew 11:11-15 which can be understood without deep straining.

One day is with the Lord as a thousand years and vice versa; and the passage is not the only occasion when Christ used the word ‘now’ in a way that clearly referred to the very short period of time from the beginning of his ministry until he was finally taken up, and Pentecost arrived.

In the passage we learn that even John the Baptist could not claim a place in the Kingdom and consequently, although being greater than anyone else born of a woman, was less than the least of those who would be part of that kingdom.

Why was that?

It was simply because John the Baptist would die before the Spirit would be given in a very special way, the beginning of which was to be marked by Pentecost.

“this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified” (John 7:39)

Therefore, because the Kingdom would begin at Pentecost, after his death, JtB could not be a part of it.

If any should doubt Pentecost as being the pivotal point for the real beginning of the Kingdom, JtB’s role in preparing the way is again very illustrative if you pick up on the emphasis yet again on the ‘Spirit’.

“In those days came John the Baptist saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand, prepare ye the way of the Lord.
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire” (Pentecost)

And if any should think that the Spirit was ever previously given in the special way that He was given from Pentecost onwards, just consider that you will find no other reference to such, apart from one exceptional circumstance in John 20, which related only to Christ’s chosen 12 Apostles.

The Kingdom of God/Heaven is synonymous with the formal change over from Old to New Covenant of which the giving of the Spirit at Pentecost, in order to give life to the old letter of the Law, is the key element.

Regarding the essential role of the Spirit in the change-over read Ezek. 36:26, Jer. 31:33, and Heb. 8:10, amongst many others.

And finally

“Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, forasmuch as ye are the epistle of Christ, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
God also having made us able ministers of the New Covenant; not of the letter, but of the Spirit: for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life” (2 Cor. 3:2-6)

Mike.

Last edited by diebamted21 : 09-06-2009 at 08:53 AM.
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  #8  
Old 09-06-2009, 09:47 AM
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Default Re: Kingdom of God And Kingdom of Heaven

Mike:

Thanks for the very good post.

Indeed, John the Baptist was the greatest prophet born of a woman; prophets prophesy by faith, and faith by the Spirit.

Yet, the least in the Kingdom of God (who is in Heaven) is greater than Prophet John.

While the Spirit has always been, the Holy Ghost was given to man post the resurrection and glorification of our Lord Jesus Christ. The Holy Ghost and all He gives and does and brings about constitute the Kingdom.

Summarily, scripture defines the Kingdom as righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Ghost. John the Baptist did not attain those things by the Holy Ghost... because as you have posted, and as implied by scriptures, the Holy Ghost was not yet given at his time.

Those things are within the soul of a saint who has entered the Kingdom. By their presence within the saint do we know that the Kingdom of God/Heaven is neither a physical kingdom nor the corporate Church. But, saints are "kings" in the Church.

Now, how greater than Prophet John the Baptists are saints who have righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost?
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  #9  
Old 09-06-2009, 10:15 AM
diebamted21
 
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Default Re: Kingdom of God And Kingdom of Heaven

Thanks 'C'

Good additional food for thought.

Mike.
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  #10  
Old 09-06-2009, 12:10 PM
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Default Re: Kingdom of God And Kingdom of Heaven

Quote:
Originally Posted by Servant View Post
I curious to know what my beloved brothers and sisters in Christ think about this topic.

John the baptist and Jesus both started their ministries teaching and preaching about the kingdom. Since out savior started His ministry with this subject it must be very important. It is only in the gospel of Mathew that both kingdoms are mentioned. Many bible scholars say there the same but in my study of and on since 1987 I find that there not the same. After all God did allow the nation of Israel to be divided into two kingdoms and yet both were his people. Likewise the gospel of Mathew points out two kingdoms and yet both are his people. The kingdom of heaven includes believers and unbelievers, the wheat and the tares. Now the kingdom of God on the other hand we find a little more information. The gospel of John states in Ch. 3:3 that unless one is born again they can not even SEE! the kingdom of God. then in verse 5 of that same ch. in John we find that a person must be born of water and of the spirit to enter the kingdom of God. So there seems to be a difference between thee two kingdoms. What do you think? Bible references only please, thank you so much for reading, God bless.

Servant
Kingdom of God and Kingdom of Heaven is one and the same if we will come and ask God about this issue. But if we will be talking only in accordance to what is written in the bible, all that we will end up are different opinions and interpretations and we will not be able to come up with one conclusion.

The Lord God is always with us and He is just watching each and everyone of us so that when someone turns back to Him and call on in Him in the reality of His existence, God is always there to respond to that someone's need.
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