Most here know that I present a message that is different from all others on here. I am not here to debate doctrines. I am here to let people see that God offers freedom to grow up into Him in all things but that we have stumbled in our unbelief and are limiting God, just as Jesus could do no mighty works in His hometown, because of their unbelief.

This post is a response to a post that Winsome, my dear friend Steve from England, made. I feel his answer and opinion typifies the beliefs of many held here. He believes that sin is for most simply a slow process of eradicating a bit at a time. I disagree. I love this site and the people on it. I care for your freedom and that God is glorified. One thing I will say about most on here is that we say "Scriptures rule. Not our thoughts, nor our feelings...the truth of the word of God itself, not our opinions about what it means, correct?

With that said, I ask all here, to scripturally show why you think sin either cannot be defeated, or if you believe it can be, 100%, then how it is to be defeated in a lifelong process, as opposed to a reckoning by faith. I will do the same. All I ask of all is that nobility rule. Let us be like the Bereans and seek out the truth, no matter where it take us. Is that acceptable? The rules are simple, simply scripture. If you need to explain how you feel a scripture fits and why, fine, but other than some very basic explaining, the bulk of this challenge will simply be the word of God itself, deal?

Here is the post. Once read, if you feel you have a scriptural reason to back up your beliefs, please share them. I will do the same with my beliefs, and back them up with clear scriptural references. At that point, then it is a matter of either walking away, with one of us shaking our heads and say "Yes, I know what the scriptures say but, I think...." or saying "Yes I know the scriptures promise this, and thus I must believe them....." The choice will still be ours, but, now we will be accountable for it. The challenge is on......


Hi Bruce,

I agree and disagree with you’re here.

I agree that getting free of sin is not the only goal of our walk, and that just being free from sin is not the same as being virtuous. But I disagree that one must follow the other. I think we do them in parallel. As I think I have said before I’m not convinced that becoming free from sin is as easy as you suggest. I know God has granted you a remarkable experience but I’m not convinced that will be true for all. God sometimes gives people remarkable experiences to demonstrate his power and also so that they will act as witnesses to others. St. Paul had a remarkable experience of Christ on his way to Damascus but that is not the normal experience of Christian conversion. The apostles had a remarkable experience of the Holy Spirit coming down on them in visible tongues of fire, but that is not the normal experience of Christians. It didn’t even happen to them a second time, even though the room rocked and they were filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 4:31).

I think for most of us overcoming sin in our lives is a slower process. Please don’t think I am undervaluing the importance of faith in this, or that I am suggesting in any way that we can do it by our own efforts, but our role in this is more than just being passive. We have a positive role in this. Acts of denial, prayer and fasting are part of our contribution to the work of the Spirit in us. You say that all your efforts of fasting and prayer could not free you from sin. And no it wouldn’t if you were just doing it under your own strength. But when you did come before the Lord and give yourself over to him in faith then I suggest you were much stronger and more ready to receive his grace than if you had not done those things.

The practice of the virtues is our work and strengthens our character. They will help us overcome sin because for the most part they are the negation of vices. We acquire virtue by practicing virtue, but with the grace of God.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
1810 Human virtues acquired by education, by deliberate acts and by a perseverance ever-renewed in repeated efforts are purified and elevated by divine grace. With God's help, they forge character and give facility in the practice of the good. the virtuous man is happy to practice them.

1811 It is not easy for man, wounded by sin, to maintain moral balance. Christ's gift of salvation offers us the grace necessary to persevere in the pursuit of the virtues. Everyone should always ask for this grace of light and strength, frequent the sacraments, cooperate with the Holy Spirit, and follow his calls to love what is good and shun evil.

Steve



My dear friend in the Lord, I accept that you, at present, have your take on things, it is your take and you must be faithful to what God is showing you. Just be honest with yourself and and make sure this is not just your head simply over-ruling the word of God.

One thing to consider here though with your slow process theory is time. We are running out of it. If it is a slow process, as you propose, and I suspect this process is dependant on how earnestly people seek it (outside of simply accepting it, of course), do you not think it strange that as we approach the end of the time line, that people would be a lot more earnest about the importance of it in their lives? We are told that sin must go, that without holiness no man shall see the Lord. Is it not a strange thing that 99.9% of the people called by His name simply do not seem to care that sin is still their bedfellow? Is this not the exact reason why the world looks on with scoffing at us as we play the part of the hyprocrite and then make excuses for our lkack of faith in the God we say we serve? You are back to the mantra "Christians Aren't Perfect, Just Forgiven" Shall I send you an embroidered pillow?

Listen, think about it! If you were to take a long train ride of 1000 miles across Russia on the Trans-Siberian Railroad and had your own "room" where all your suitcases were, and it was a 7 day journey, to be comfortable, you would have suitcases unpacked, relaxed, enjoying the journey and the amazing scenery, not thinking so much about the final destination. Yet, as the miles clicked off, and the final leg of your journey arrived, knowing that you must leave with bags all neatly packed and ready to go to allow you to catch your flight home, would you not get busy and pack? Woulld you not be on your hands and knees looking for even the smallest of items that maybe slipped under the sleeping berth so that you were 100% prepared to leave the train for your next big adventure- your flight home?Would you continue in "vacation" mode even if everyone else on the train strangely did the same, if you KNEW you must be prepared, and that their preparedness, or lack thereof had nothing to do with your success in making it for your flight, totally ready to go? Would you lounge about in an "I don't have a care in the world" attitude even as the train rounded the curve to the train station to complete your long journey and bring you to the end of the line?

Poor analysis I know, but it must suffice. The fact is Steve, that is what sin does to you....it numbs the heart. It anesthesizes our hearts and puts or minds in control where logic can override even the clearest of instrustructions from God. It assures us that all is ok with the world when it is not. It whispers...

"That is not smoke you smell. Your house is not on fire, Relax, that is the smell of a bonfire and you are roasting marshmallows with Cindy Crawford. Go back to sleep. Take it easy. All will be fine if you just stay asleep!"

Sin is like Delilah with Samsom, velvet ropes wrapping over and under us, softly, gently, tightening ever so slightly, backing off if we even get a hint of its intent, until it is confidant that we have let it wind around our hearts to such an extent that it can now begin to fulfill its origianl goal, to tightenen like a python constricting its prey, finally taking away from us our freedom, our source of power, our sight, leaving us blinded to the light of God and then letting our life devolve from putting thousands of the enemy to flight with the jawbone of an donkey to grinding out corn for the very enemy we were sent to rout. Instead of setting the captives free, we ourself have become captive, have we not?


The sad part is that the blindness is so severe that even when bonds are loosened or taken away, we have become so trained in our rote service, that we continue to simply circle, pushing the millstone of self effort, trained perfectly by the hard task master, who has convinced us that because we are moving forward, it is but a matter of time before we will eventually get to the goal we seek...yet all the while we are simply going in circles, repeating the same lessons, ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

"Your house is not on fire, Cindy whispers. Here, have another marshmallow..."

Was this not the lesson of the 600,000 in the wilderness, having witnessed God's delivering power in their Red Sea experience? They refused to simply believe and go in and take the land as a gift. The enemy looked formidable and fear gripped their hearts. Lessons of the strength of the God they served melted away as they looked at their strength, their abilities, and not at His.

So a journey that should have taken a month took 40 years. Why so long? Unbelief had to die out. Unbelief will not go into the promised land. It cannot. Why. It is dishonoring to God. It cries out to his face...

I do not need you. I can do it with my fasts, my prayers, my acts of virtue. See God? See how good I am doing. I deserve it now. I deserve to be borught into the land. Where are my wages?

How many of the original group went in? Two. Two out of 600,000. That is the value God places on faith, Steve. He is not a god of numbers. He is the God of purity. He is the God of faith, and faith alone will He honor, becasue faith shows HIM to be the only delivered we need and throws all of the glory and all of the honoro at His worthy feet. It is all we have to offer Him.

I must stick by what scriptures say. Let me ask you, on this site, a big deal is made out of making all scriptural. That is to be our "rallying cry", is it not? Is it scriptural?

Then here is the challenge. I would like you to back up your version of how to die to sin by the scriptures and so will I. We are told that the heart is deceitful above all things. Satan has access to our old nature and he will convince us to do the "logical" thing, that God has given us minds to reason with. Funny, that is what agnostics and atheist say to us Christians and our belief in a 2000 year old story about some man that died and then rose from the dead. We have the same scenario here, only now we are the agnostic when it comes to the truth, no? They do not believe, we do not believe. We are simply on step up from them on the ladder to God. We best pray it is enough. We best learn that God said He wished we would be hot or cold, just not lukewarm. We had best believe it all, or throw the mess out as a fable and get along with our lives and enjoy it as much as we can for tomorrow we die.

I love you Steve, and I know God has you in his crosshairs, and that He has been dealing with you. You have been influenced not by just the incessant rantings of some crazed American, your book on "Christ said it, I believe it" has hammered home more than a few nails as well. So I cannot let this statement of yours go unchallenged.

I was just the miracle child? Do you not think he would have selected someone more deserving? Did I simply win the spiritual lottery, or sit by the pool of Siloam long enough to see the angel stir the water and thus find the answer all seek but none are finding, or when they do find it, they wilt from unbelief to grab hold of it?

Steve, your words above have a fatal flaw:

I think for most of us overcoming sin in our lives is a slower process.

"I think?" Where is that in the bible? I want to know why, scripturally, you would reject the clear cut instructions of God for an "I think" or an "I feel". I challenge you to be like the Bereans and use the word of God to decide for you. And if at the end, the word leaves you beat up, bloody and bruised with no rock left for unbelief to hide under from the searchings of the Spirit into the deepest recesses of your heart, and you desperately admit to it being the truth, and every man a liar, including your "I think", your being noble like the Bereans will no doubt find you free with a freedom you cannot even imagine right now. The path is hard. Will you agree?

Listen, for the end of Samson's sad journey did not end with him grinding corn for our enemy. At the end of the story, Samson's hair grew, just as our faith is now. A prayer went up to God, a prayer of faith, and the God that cannot turn away believing prayer answered as He always does, for he is and has always been a God of His word...they are inseperable. The church, long a spectacle for satan to ridicule, will once again rise up in faith in its God and the walls will come down, as millions are swept into the kingdom of God. I pray you will be a part of it. And careful Steve, I pray believing I receive.

[christkid777]

Well Bruce,I don't see anything wrong with your challenge. But you will have to be ready to accept that the things you say are new are not really new and are not unique to you. And if you insist on posting mile long replies the number of respondents will shrink. Perhaps you should begin by posting a "short" synopsis of your perspective with scripture. Then we know what to respond to.

Originally Posted by christkid777

Well Bruce,I don't see anything wrong with your challenge. But you will have to be ready to accept that the things you say are new are not really new and are not unique to you. And if you insist on posting mile long replies the number of respondents will shrink. Perhaps you should begin by posting a "short" synopsis of your perspective with scripture. Then we know what to respond to.

LOL, James, touche. I will be the first to admit, I have a tendancy to be verbose, or as my wife calls it "diarrhea of the mouth". Why she stays will me as as big a mystery as the trinity.

I fully realize that what I am saying is not a new revelation. I would certainly hope it has not taken two thousand years of stumbling over this gold nugget and that I would be the one to "discover it." But it is absolutely new to me and I pray it becomes so to all who do not already walk in real manifested freedom and the joy of the Lord. Truth is only beneficial if it becomes "our" truth, right? In totla honesty, I take no prode in finding this out as real. If there was a reason I discovered it for me, it was only my tremendous need and desperate state... not much to get prideful about.

Ok, I will do my best to keep my replies succinct, as that was the ground rules.

I will start out with a few seed scriptures and then let people come back with scritural reasons wher I am misunderstanding the verses I present and then supplying their own verses to show our battle for victory to be a lifelong process filled with defeats and the typically accepted three steps forward, two steps back scenario. follwed by their own brief synopsis of what they clearly see in them. Is that fair? No "I think's or "I feel's"...the scriptures need to speak themselves,ok?

My belief as taught by scriptures is that we are to come to the point we see that in us dwells nothing redeemable ("There is none good save God"...."for I know that in me dwells no good thing".... "for all of our righteousness is as filthy rags") and that all true goodness comes from Him alone and what He accomplishes in our lives. We are all born with an old man, called the flesh and it cannot inherit the kingdom of God, and cannot be changed into the image of our Lord. The fruits it bears may indeed be God's fruits, but they are paltry and spindley and nowhere near the types of fruits we can enjoy in our lives if God is dealing with us in our "new man", a nature where the power of sin is broken.

''but you are not in the flesh, but in the spirit, if so be that the spirit of God dwells in you."

"....for you are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God."

"Reckon yourself dead indeed unto sin and alive unto God."

"for sin shall not have dominion over you."

"for he that is dead is freed from sin."

To any who chooses to respond, please be so kind as to explain scripturally why these verses do not mean we are to walk above sin, and then scriptures as to why we must sin a little every day as most believe and that it is a lifelong process to die to sin. Thanks.

This is way off-topic, but maybe you're personal reasons for being here are not entirely compatible with the purposes of the T2O site. Maybe that's why you've been frustrated that others don't respond the way you hope, or that others even respond at all.

Just a thought. I could be way off, and I'm certainly not suggesting you leave. Just that if you're here to spread a specific message instead of to participate in dialogue, a blog might be better.

[christkid777]

I am actually working on something else but I would look at Col 3:1-4 with a little question. The full verse says our life is hid with Christ and It is when Christ appears that our life will also appear. I would see that to indicate that there is waiting for fulfillment. Would you agree/disagree?

Originally Posted by christkid777

I am actually working on something else but I would look at Col 3:1-4 with a little question. The full verse says our life is hid with Christ and It is when Christ appears that our life will also appear. I would see that to indicate that there is waiting for fulfillment. Would you agree/disagree?

Is there yet fulfillment to be had? I would agree with you James, there is. This mortality must put on immortality. And yet, even in the verses quoted, God says:

"For you are dead, and you life is hid with Christ in God."

This tells me two things- first, we are dead not dying if we have believed the truths of the fullness of the good news and secondly, that we are hid in Him. We are told elsewhere that:

The name of the Lord is a strong and mighty tower, the righteous runs in and is safe."

The question needs to be asked then, If we are safe fromthe enemy, how are still being picked off left and right? Does safe mean safe?

One more point in that same chapter you referred to. It is verses 9 and 10 if Colossians 3:

"Lie not one to another, seeing that you have put off the old man, with his deeds, and have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of Him that created him."

[winsome]

Originally Posted by BruceG

One thing to consider here though with your slow process theory is time. We are running out of it. If it is a slow process, as you propose,

Bruce,
I said it is a slower process, not a slow process, and I was contrasting it to your own experience which was instant. I did point out that God sometimes acts in an extraordinary way and gave two examples, to which you made the following comment.

Originally Posted by BruceG

I was just the miracle child? Do you not think he would have selected someone more deserving? Did I simply win the spiritual lottery, or sit by the pool of Siloam long enough to see the angel stir the water and thus find the answer all seek but none are finding, or when they do find it, they wilt from unbelief to grab hold of it?

St. Paul says somewhere that God chooses the weak to display his power so that no-one can say it was their own work. So it is not necessarily odd that he chose you rather than someone more deserving. But if as I contend this conversion of heart and mastering of sin is a slower process for most then we can do other things in parallel, such as prayer, fasting, practicing virtues, all of which will speed up the process.

Originally Posted by BruceG

"That is not smoke you smell. Your house is not on fire, Relax, that is the smell of a bonfire and you are roasting marshmallows with Cindy Crawford. Go back to sleep. Take it easy. All will be fine if you just stay asleep!" ……………………..

………………."Your house is not on fire, Cindy whispers. Here, have another marshmallow..."

Mmmm! I love marshmallows. You can send me some rather than the embroidered pillow.

But to your challenge.
St. Paul, that great man of faith, spoke of his struggles against sin: We know that the law is spiritual; but I am carnal, sold into slavery to sin. What I do, I do not understand. For I do not do what I want, but I do what I hate. 16Now if I do what I do not want, I concur that the law is good. So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that good does not dwell in me, that is, in my flesh. The willing is ready at hand, but doing the good is not. For I do not do the good I want, but I do the evil I do not want. Now if (I) do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. So, then, I discover the principle that when I want to do right, evil is at hand. For I take delight in the law of God, in my inner self, but I see in my members another principle at war with the law of my mind, taking me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. (Rom 7:14-23)

For our struggle is not with flesh and blood but with the principalities, with the powers, with the world rulers of this present darkness, with the evil spirits in the heavens.(Eph 6:12)

In both of these he spoke in the present tense, not of some past event. It’s not a done deal.

God bless

Steve

Originally Posted by winsome

Bruce,
I said it is a slower process, not a slow process, and I was contrasting it to your own experience which was instant. I did point out that God sometimes acts in an extraordinary way and gave two examples, to which you made the following comment.



St. Paul says somewhere that God chooses the weak to display his power so that no-one can say it was their own work. So it is not necessarily odd that he chose you rather than someone more deserving. But if as I contend this conversion of heart and mastering of sin is a slower process for most then we can do other things in parallel, such as prayer, fasting, practicing virtues, all of which will speed up the process.


Mmmm! I love marshmallows. You can send me some rather than the embroidered pillow.

But to your challenge.
St. Paul, that great man of faith, spoke of his struggles against sin: We know that the law is spiritual; but I am carnal, sold into slavery to sin. What I do, I do not understand. For I do not do what I want, but I do what I hate. 16Now if I do what I do not want, I concur that the law is good. So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that good does not dwell in me, that is, in my flesh. The willing is ready at hand, but doing the good is not. For I do not do the good I want, but I do the evil I do not want. Now if (I) do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. So, then, I discover the principle that when I want to do right, evil is at hand. For I take delight in the law of God, in my inner self, but I see in my members another principle at war with the law of my mind, taking me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. (Rom 7:14-23)

For our struggle is not with flesh and blood but with the principalities, with the powers, with the world rulers of this present darkness, with the evil spirits in the heavens.(Eph 6:12)

In both of these he spoke in the present tense, not of some past event. It’s not a done deal.

God bless

Steve

Hi Stephen, I was waiting for Romans 7 to pop up. It is most likely the most commonly referred scripture to support the sin battle all feel they must endure till Jesus comes.

The key is reading Romans through as a continual story. In Romans 6, Paul sets the stage, talking about Gods amazing delivering power and that, like as Christ died to sin once, so are we. The famous scripture is there:

"Reckon yourself dead indeed unto sin and alive unto God"

But then he goes into discussing what holds us back- laboring under the old covenant, the law. He clarifies his Romans 7 address as to who he is then going to talk about- a man under the law. This is clearly not Paul's present testimony for it would totally contradict Romans 6 and Romans 8. He writes in a way that illustrates that ok, if I am a man laboring to please God with a list of do's and don'ts, external attempts at cleaning my own cup, this is what happens to me. Was it Paul's real testimony at one time, before he met Christ? To be sure. Was it his present testimony? NO.

Why? How do we know? Read on. He calls it the body of this death and cries out "Who shall set me free from the body of this death? Thank God thru Jesus Christ the Lord!"

Your second verse, Eph. 6:12 re-iterates perfectly the truth of the new nature I share about. Our struggle is no longer with US. It is with the devil. We are told:

But now are you light in the Lord. WALK AS CHILDREN OF LIGHT!"

Do you see? We are told:

"As a man thinketh in his heart, so is he."

What do we believe about ourselves? Old natures trying desperately to become new, chipping away at our sin nature, always working at it, never arriving at freedom? Is that the free indeed Jesus had in mind? If that is true, Stephen, then explain why Paul would say in Ephesians 6 that if we "put on the whole armor of God, we will quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one?"

Romans 6 tells us that we are to reckon ourselves dead to sin ONCE, just like Christ died ONCE, and then to put on our new man to ever live before God, just like Christ does, in the same way!

If we believe we are still old, then guess what experience we will have? OLD. Ahhh, but if we are bold enought to come before His throne of Grace to receieve help and take from Him our new man, a new nature that sin shall NOT have dominion over, and we have this mindset as to who we are, guess what our experience will be?

"AS A MAN THINKETH IN HIS HEART, SO IS HE."

The new wine of the spirit must be put into new wineskins, for the old cannot hold it.

Originally Posted by BruceG

.....He believes that sin is for most simply a slow process of eradicating a bit at a time. I disagree....

...scripturally show why you think sin either cannot be defeated, or if you believe it can be, 100%, then how it is to be defeated in a lifelong process......

The first scripture that popped into my head was 1 John 1:8:
"If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us."

What else pops into my mind is Paul speaking of how we are to grow in sanctification and holiness. (I forget the verse numbers.) If we must grow in holiness, that means we still have some "un-holiness" in us, and un-holy people tend to sin from time to time.

Also, in John 20:23, when Jesus tells the apostles: "If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained" , this implies that people are still sinning, else there would be no sins to forgive.

So I have to go with Winsome here. Just because we have become Christians, we still sin. I think anyone here would be hard pressed to say they have never commited a sin since becoming a Christian.

Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader

The first scripture that popped into my head was 1 John 1:8:
"If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us."

What else pops into my mind is Paul speaking of how we are to grow in sanctification and holiness. (I forget the verse numbers.) If we must grow in holiness, that means we still have some "un-holiness" in us, and un-holy people tend to sin from time to time.

Also, in John 20:23, when Jesus tells the apostles: "If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained" , this implies that people are still sinning, else there would be no sins to forgive.

So I have to go with Winsome here. Just because we have become Christians, we still sin. .

Terry, as to the scripture you mentioned, again, it is always important to read the scripture in context of what is being said. here are the verses surrounding it:

If we say we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not the truth.

But if we walk in the light as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His son cleanses us from all sin.

If we say we have no sin (needing to be cleansed from) we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
1st John 1:6-8

Then, as a summation, two verses down in 1 John 2:1, John says this:

My little children, these things I write unto you, that you sin not.

Do you see the dilemma if what you are Winsome are saying is true? John would, in essence, be saying this-

Ok, guys, no one can say they can stop sinning, If they do , they deceive themselves. Now, here is what I want you to do. Don't sin.

What a mess! If we obey him, we deceive ourselves!

Plus, if 1 John 8 means that we cannot stop sinning, then it flies in the face of what Paul said. "Sin shall not have dominion over you" and "He that is dead is freed from sin."

It also puts Jesus model prayer in conflict with us. He asks us to pray that we be delivered from evil, and yet if we obey, or even believe that it is possible to do so, we deceive ourselves. Jesus did not ask us to pray a nice platitude, a goal that none can reach but the holiness is in the reaching for it. No, He meant exactly what He said.

I think anyone here would be hard pressed to say they have never commited a sin since becoming a Christian.

Remember the rules, no "think's", just scriptures.

As to your mention of growing in sanctifucation, absolutely! We must. THIS is the process. It is not growing from death to life. We do not start out 100% alive to the flesh and then as we walk our walk, we become 50% dead and 50% alive. We must die, not slowly, but once for all, just as Christ did, Romans 6 tells us. It is only when we become new wineskins that the spirit can really do its given task. The process is in the being renewed in His image, but until we die, we find that process always eluding our fingertips. We are told by Pual clearly:

"...but you are NOT in the flesh, but in the spirit, if so be that the spirit of God dwells in you."