[Brandon]

I was looking at Matthew chapter 11 verses 12,13,14 and was wondering what is Jesus saying here?

11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

11:14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.

Is he saying that John the Baptist is Elijah?

[Soulheart3]

Originally Posted by Brandon

I was looking at Matthew chapter 11 verses 12,13,14 and was wondering what is Jesus saying here?

11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

My thought is that Jesus in His ministry was the kingdom of heaven suffering violence from the hands of those who would see him stopped, like the pharisees, and in general the whisperings of satan trying to get people to rise up against Him, taking it by force is the foreknowledge of the guarden capture.

Originally Posted by Brandon

11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

Jesus was the pinnacle of the law and the prophets and as Jesus began His ministry, there was no need for more of these as long as the bridegroom is around.

Originally Posted by Brandon

11:14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.

Is he saying that John the Baptist is Elijah?

Yes, thats what it clearly says to me, although in my bible it says

11:14 "And if you are willing to accept it, John himself is Elijah who was to come"

My bible version is New American Standard Bible, large print.

-Brad

[kimberlee]

Originally Posted by Brandon

I was looking at Matthew chapter 11 verses 12,13,14 and was wondering what is Jesus saying here?

11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

11:14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.

Is he saying that John the Baptist is Elijah?

You started with verse 12. Go back and read the same passage, but start with verse 7.

In verse 10 of His description of John the Baptist, Jesus is quoting directing from Malachi 3:1 about the "forerunner" - the one who will prepare the way. And in Malachi 4:5, the forerunner is prophecied to be Elijah.

Does that mean that Jesus was saying that John the Baptist was Elijah reincarnated? No. Reincarnation is not scriptural and was inconsistent with beliefs of a Jew at that time.

Does that mean that Jesus was saying that John the Baptist was Elijah resurrected? No. Luke 1:17 says that John the Baptist came in the "spirit and power" of Elijah.

And in John 1:19-23, John the Baptist clearly states that he is not a literal Elijah.

Someone smarter than me said it like this:

"There is a key phrase in Jesus’ identification of John the Baptist with Elijah in the text above that must not be overlooked. He says, “if you are willing to accept it, he is Elijah.” In other words, John the Baptist’s identification as Elijah was not predicated upon him being Elijah, but rather upon people’s responses to his role. To those who were willing to believe in Jesus, John the Baptist functioned as Elijah, for they believed in Jesus as Lord. To the religious leaders who rejected Jesus, John the Baptist did not perform this function."

Perhaps the doctrine of reincarnation has been lost, but in the days of jesus, the jews very much believed in reincarnation.

And not only the jews, but the people (romans) who thought that jesus was the reincarnation of john the baptist as well.

But about john the baptist being elijah....no i dont think he was. What I do think he was, was operating in the office of elijah for a certain period of time. He had the mantle of authority that was elijah's. He prepared the way, like elijah prepared the way.

In the same way, Jesus gave his disciples authority to do certain things which only he could do.

[Soulheart3]

I understand the problem christians have with re-incarnation, and I agree that there is scripture that states we die once and then the ressurection. And I think this applies just about all the time. But I also believe that God does not live within the boundries that people tend to put around Him, and that although he has a path for us all that is STRAIGHT and NARROW. Sometimes one persons path does not match another persons path. Both Enoch and Elijah did not die a normal death here on this earth according to scripture. Perhaps they never experienced death the way we see it. Perhaps they were "Changed as in the blink of an eye", not death but changed to a new body without death. Perhaps this new body is more spirit than anything else, and this spirit can enter another body. Jesus said that this would be hard to see as He said "IF you are willing to accept it". I see Jesus's words as literal, if others see it otherwise, then I guess "... you are not willing to accept it...", and thats fine with me, just stating a portion of my faith.

-Brad

P.S. Almost forgot, yes John the Baptist did not believe he was Elijah, but when he came back, he merely had the spirit of Elijah, not the memories it seems, and this would make the re-incarnation more acceptable IMO.

[kimberlee]

The Jews believed in a resurrection, not a reincarnation. And only some of them believed in a resurrection - the Pharisees. The Sadducees did not.

Martha told Jesus that she knew that she would see her brother again in the resurrection.

King David said that he knew that he would see his baby son again someday, but not here on this earth.

Some thought that Jesus was Elijah or even John the Baptist come back again. If they believed that Jesus was John the Bapist reincarnated, then how would John the Baptist be resurrected?

If John the Baptist were the literal reincarnation of Elijah, then who would go to Abraham's bosom and eventually heaven? They both coudn't go if they were two separate humans who shared the same spirit. Who would be resurrected and given the incorruptible body?

[alphaomega3160]

Originally Posted by Brandon

I was looking at Matthew chapter 11 verses 12,13,14 and was wondering what is Jesus saying here?


Is he saying that John the Baptist is Elijah?

remember that matthew 17 is coming ; and there the subject is both

[Soulheart3]

Originally Posted by kimberlee

The Jews believed in a resurrection, not a reincarnation. And only some of them believed in a resurrection - the Pharisees. The Sadducees did not.

Martha told Jesus that she knew that she would see her brother again in the resurrection.

King David said that he knew that he would see his baby son again someday, but not here on this earth.

Some thought that Jesus was Elijah or even John the Baptist come back again. If they believed that Jesus was John the Bapist reincarnated, then how would John the Baptist be resurrected?

If John the Baptist were the literal reincarnation of Elijah, then who would go to Abraham's bosom and eventually heaven? They both coudn't go if they were two separate humans who shared the same spirit. Who would be resurrected and given the incorruptible body?

With God, all things are possible. Instead of believing what you have been taught by men, pray to the Lord about this, and wait for His Holy Spirit to guide you into the truth.

Greetings Brandon,

It has been some years since I researched this particular matter. What I see is Jesus making a reference to the progression of 'prophets' leading up to and ending with John as in 'were of the time of John the baptist'. Somewhere, whether in the original dictation or earliest translation, things ended up being worded in such a manner to cause some confusion in the intended meaning. Elijah was Elijah, John was John, and Jesus 'is', and that's all that matters to me.

Blessings upon you

[CI]

There are prophets by the Law and the Spirit who prophesied/prophesy until the coming of greater prophets with more power.

Those greater prophets with more power are messengers to prepare the way for the coming of the glory of God. They are sent just before the onset of the kingdom of God that comes with the glory of God.

John the Baptist was the pioneer prophet with more power to prepare the way for the coming of the glory of God. He was earlier prophesied about, which prophesy is also recorded in Matt. 11:10:

For this is [he], of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

In the face of Jesus Christ is the glory of God (2Cr 4:6). So, John the Baptist came as a messenger before the face of Jesus Christ (wherein is the glory of God).

That makes him (John the Baptist) the pioneer greater prophet to come before the coming of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.


John the Baptist: The Elijah

Elijah was/is the symbol/father of all great prophets. Every great prophet comes in the order of Elijah.

So, John the Baptist was a great prophet (in the likeness of Elijah) with more power. And, he came before the face of Jesus Christ.


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Grace and peace from God the Father and from the Christ unto all!