[NotFinishedYet]

I was sent this link the other day to look at and study and am still working my way through it. However, some of the thoughts presented in it are different enough from what our modern churches teach that I wanted to bring it here for discussion. Please read it over and tell me what you think of this minister's interpretation of "Israel" and "judah". It's in PDF form so you can download it: it's 89 pages long. TY, Peggy

http://www.gods-kingdom-ministries.o...0in%20Part.pdf

Originally Posted by NotFinishedYet

I was sent this link the other day to look at and study and am still working my way through it. However, some of the thoughts presented in it are different enough from what our modern churches teach that I wanted to bring it here for discussion. Please read it over and tell me what you think of this minister's interpretation of "Israel" and "judah". It's in PDF form so you can download it: it's 89 pages long. TY, Peggy

http://www.gods-kingdom-ministries.o...0in%20Part.pdf

89 pages?? sigh..

[NotFinishedYet]

Originally Posted by Moose

89 pages?? sigh..

Come on, ya know ya wanna..... oh, welcome back!

The state of Israel today is a secular state and bears no resemblence to the Israel of old.

Today, the Church - the "People of God" - is the New Israel. This is indicated in Paul’s writings: In Romans 9:6 he says that "not all who are of Israel are Israel." This indicates the existence of two Israels. One—"all who are of Israel"—indicates the ethnic people, not all of whom believe in Jesus. The other Israel, the context reveals, does not include those who have rejected the Messiah. This new Israel, founded by Messiah, exists in spiritual continuity with the Old Testament saints and so counts as a "spiritual Israel." It includes Gentiles who believe in the Messiah and so through baptism are spiritually circumcised (Col. 2:11–12) and are reckoned as spiritual Jews (Rom. 2:26–29).

[NotFinishedYet]

Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader

The state of Israel today is a secular state and bears no resemblence to the Israel of old.

Today, the Church - the "People of God" - is the New Israel. This is indicated in Paul’s writings: In Romans 9:6 he says that "not all who are of Israel are Israel." This indicates the existence of two Israels. One—"all who are of Israel"—indicates the ethnic people, not all of whom believe in Jesus. The other Israel, the context reveals, does not include those who have rejected the Messiah. This new Israel, founded by Messiah, exists in spiritual continuity with the Old Testament saints and so counts as a "spiritual Israel." It includes Gentiles who believe in the Messiah and so through baptism are spiritually circumcised (Col. 2:11–12) and are reckoned as spiritual Jews (Rom. 2:26–29).

Hmmmmm....... are you disagreeing with the author as to his premise on the 2 Israels? Why?

Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader

The state of Israel today is a secular state and bears no resemblence to the Israel of old.

Today, the Church - the "People of God" - is the New Israel. This is indicated in Paul’s writings: In Romans 9:6 he says that "not all who are of Israel are Israel." This indicates the existence of two Israels. One—"all who are of Israel"—indicates the ethnic people, not all of whom believe in Jesus. The other Israel, the context reveals, does not include those who have rejected the Messiah. This new Israel, founded by Messiah, exists in spiritual continuity with the Old Testament saints and so counts as a "spiritual Israel." It includes Gentiles who believe in the Messiah and so through baptism are spiritually circumcised (Col. 2:11–12) and are reckoned as spiritual Jews (Rom. 2:26–29).

Originally Posted by NotFinishedYet

Hmmmmm....... are you disagreeing with the author as to his premise on the 2 Israels? Why?

Well, my first sentence was in regards to the "state" of Israel, which is not neccessarily the ethinc Jews. Many people who reside in Israel are Palestinians.

But my second paragraph compares ethic "Israel" to "spiritual" Israel, or what I called, the New Israel.

[NotFinishedYet]

Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader

Well, my first sentence was in regards to the "state" of Israel, which is not neccessarily the ethinc Jews. Many people who reside in Israel are Palestinians.

But my second paragraph compares ethic "Israel" to "spiritual" Israel, or what I called, the New Israel.

So..... how are you relating that to the text?

[Watchman]

To answer the topic question, one has to first know who, originally, were the 'chosen' people spoken of in scripture. It first appears in Deut. 7:6 and refers to ancient Israel -- all 12 tribes.

So, the nation 'Israel' today is a misnomer as it is settled, primarily, by those of the Jewish religion. The Jewish religion consists of some ethnic Jews, which are the paternal offspring of Judah, and proselytes, from other ethnicities -- primarily Kenites. Hence, the other 11 tribes of ancient Israel are not represented in the current nation of Israel.

So, the answer is NO!

[NotFinishedYet]

Originally Posted by Watchman

To answer the topic question, one has to first know who, originally, were the 'chosen' people spoken of in scripture. It first appears in Deut. 7:6 and refers to ancient Israel -- all 12 tribes.

So, the nation 'Israel' today is a misnomer as it is settled, primarily, by those of the Jewish religion. The Jewish religion consists of some ethnic Jews, which are the paternal offspring of Judah, and proselytes, from other ethnicities -- primarily Kenites. Hence, the other 11 tribes of ancient Israel are not represented in the current nation of Israel.

So, the answer is NO!

Watchman, glad you signed on. I thought of you when I received this link. Especially the issues touched on re: Judah, Benjamin, and Levities together for the Babylonian exile, then (I believe) on to modern Israel. So you're feeling he's wrong regarding the tribes of Benjamin and Levi? Can you clarify, please? Also, what's your take on his theory regarding the 40 year Jubilee cycle?

[Watchman]

Originally Posted by NotFinishedYet

Watchman, glad you signed on. I thought of you when I received this link. Especially the issues touched on re: Judah, Benjamin, and Levities together for the Babylonian exile, then (I believe) on to modern Israel. So you're feeling he's wrong regarding the tribes of Benjamin and Levi? Can you clarify, please? Also, what's your take on his theory regarding the 40 year Jubilee cycle?

I have not finished the writing yet [89 pages]. I posted my comments from my own personal studies. Yes, the tribe of Benjamin [remnant thereof] and those Levites that served Judah [many also served the 10 northern tribes] would have been carried into exile with the conquest of Judea by the Babylonians.

We learn from the books of Nehemiah and Ezra that there were no Levites in the trek back to Jerusalem after the Persian release. They had to go back and get some Levites to return to Jerusalem. It really is not stated how many Benjamanites returned from exile; however, we know that they did [Apostle Paul was of the tribe of Benjamin].

Of course, the tribe of Judah, along with the Kenites, also returned in large numbers. But, from the migrations of people, we know that some of the tribes held hostage in Persia remained in Persia to this day. Many also migrated north, east of the Caspian sea, and settled in large numbers in the Ukraine and parts of Russia.

God scattered them -- just as He promised He would. The important thing to remember is that the Abrahamic covenant passed with the sons of Joseph [Ephraim being Britain and Mannaseh being the U.S.]. The king line passed with the daughters of Zedekiah, who migrated to the British Isles [thereby maintaining the 'septre' with the house of Judah -- Jacobs pillar being in the coronation chair of the U.K.].

I think that there are really 3 aspects of the 'chosen' people -- the Abrahamic covenant, the king line, and the lineage leading to Christ. The only one relevant to the returning exiled house of Judah was the bloodline to Christ.

Once Christ was crucified [and many Jews compliant with the Kenite heirarchy within the Pharisees], the remnant of Judah that returned from Persia ceased being the 'chosen' people, except those converting to Christianity.

Surely, those of the tribe of Judah that are of the OT Jewish religion still, cannot be considered the 'chosen' people.