In another thread, BruceG posted the following:

Originally Posted by BruceG

I am confused. I am having a hard time with what most say is the gospel. Let me summarize. We get saved by grace thru faith, right? Then afterwards, with God's help, we clean ourselves up over what...say the next 20-30 years, killing our flesh little by little. Of course, now understand, it never really dies. We just get closer and closer, a little less of self, a little more of Him. That is a pretty fair accessment of the situation, isn't it?

Here is the bottom line result of that belief system. Sins that we started out with, we still battle. Of, we get more religious as we go, but still, at the end, we are never free from our sinful nature, right? To say we finally have defeated it is actually considered the epitomy of pride and self deception.......

I am sure that Purgatory was the last thing on his mind when he posted it, but I wanted to use this as a basis for talking about Purgatory, because it reflects a fundamental truth about Purgatory.

At one point he states, "with God's help, we clean ourselves up over what...say the next 20-30 years". This is true. Even though we are saved by Gods grace, our growth in Christ - our "sanctification" - is a lifelong process. Even at the very end, just seconds before death, we are still not perfect. Again, as Bruce points out, "we get more religious as we go, but still, at the end, we are never free from our sinful nature". This is true.

The Bible states that "nothing unclean shall enter heaven". Yet, as Bruce points out, even at death we are not perfect yet. So, what must happen between death and glory? What must happen is the final, last step in that lifelong process of sanctification. The final bit of sanctification upon death is the completion of that process. We call that Purgatory - a "purging" of whatever imperfections are left at the end of life, and whatever temporal punishments we did not endure due to our sins. God's perfect justice demands the latter, and entrance into heaven where "nothing unclean" can enter demands the former.

Let me approach this another way which may clarify what I am saying. God is a consuming fire. In fact the word Seraphim actually comes from the Hebrew which means the "burning" ones. They burn with the flame that is God because they are near God. This is why nothing unclean can enter heaven. It would burn away in a flash in the presence of God. You can think of Purgatory as the fire of God's love. When you die and stand before God, whatever imperfections are left in you, whatever inclinations to sin you were not able to master in this life, all this will be burned - "purged" - away in the fire of Gods love.

Picture the sequence: You become a Christian, and through your life you grow, in holiness and sancification. You sin less and less as the years pass. Just before you die, you have run a good race, but you are not yet perfect. Then you pass from this realm and stand before God, and WHOOSSHHHH, that last bit of imperfection is blasted away from you when you come into the presence of a perfection that our mortal minds cannot even fathom.

This is Purgatory: Not a place, not a second chance, but the fire of the love of the almighty eternal God.

.


(BTW: Purgatory is only for the saved. It is not a "third place". It is only for those judged for heaven.)

[SolaVerbumDei]

Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader

In another thread, BruceG posted the following:



I am sure that Purgatory was the last thing on his mind when he posted it, but I wanted to use this as a basis for talking about Purgatory, because it reflects a fundamental truth about Purgatory.

At one point he states, "with God's help, we clean ourselves up over what...say the next 20-30 years". This is true. Even though we are saved by Gods grace, our growth in Christ - our "sanctification" - is a lifelong process. Even at the very end, just seconds before death, we are still not perfect. Again, as Bruce points out, "we get more religious as we go, but still, at the end, we are never free from our sinful nature". This is true.

The Bible states that "nothing unclean shall enter heaven". Yet, as Bruce points out, even at death we are not perfect yet. So, what must happen between death and glory? What must happen is the final, last step in that lifelong process of sanctification. The final bit of sanctification upon death is the completion of that process. We call that Purgatory - a "purging" of whatever imperfections are left at the end of life, and whatever temporal punishments we did not endure due to our sins. God's perfect justice demands the latter, and entrance into heaven where "nothing unclean" can enter demands the former.

Let me approach this another way which may clarify what I am saying. God is a consuming fire. In fact the word Seraphim actually comes from the Hebrew which means the "burning" ones. They burn with the flame that is God because they are near God. This is why nothing unclean can enter heaven. It would burn away in a flash in the presence of God. You can think of Purgatory as the fire of God's love. When you die and stand before God, whatever imperfections are left in you, whatever inclinations to sin you were not able to master in this life, all this will be burned - "purged" - away in the fire of Gods love.

Picture the sequence: You become a Christian, and through your life you grow, in holiness and sancification. You sin less and less as the years pass. Just before you die, you have run a good race, but you are not yet perfect. Then you pass from this realm and stand before God, and WHOOSSHHHH, that last bit of imperfection is blasted away from you when you come into the presence of a perfection that our mortal minds cannot even fathom.

This is Purgatory: Not a place, not a second chance, but the fire of the love of the almighty eternal God.

.


(BTW: Purgatory is only for the saved. It is not a "third place". It is only for those judged for heaven.)

Amen! A love so intense that burns all that cannot stand in his presence...

Lets see what Solomon says about purgatory.

Ecc 9:2 All [things come] alike to all: [there is] one event to the righteous, and to the wicked; to the good and to the clean, and to the unclean; to him that sacrificeth, and to him that sacrificeth not: as [is] the good, so [is] the sinner; [and] he that sweareth, as [he] that feareth an oath.



Ecc 9:3 This [is] an evil among all [things] that are done under the sun, that [there is] one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness [is] in their heart while they live, and after that [they go] to the dead.

SO ALL GO TO THE DEAD EVERYONE GOES TO THE SAME PLACE.


Ecc 9:4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.


Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

THE DEAD NO NOT ANYTHING HOW COULD THEY BE IN PURGATORY.?
INCASE YOU WANT TO ARGUE WITH THIS HE SAYS THEIR LOVE, HATRED, ENVY,
NEITHER HAVE THEY ANY PORTION FOR EVER IN ANY THING

THIS IS VERY CLEAR EASY TO UNDERSTAND,,,,,,,, DONT ADD TO IT!!

Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any [thing] that is done under the sun.


Ecc 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do [it] with thy might; for [there is] no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.


INCASE YOU WISH TO ARGUE YOUR CONSCIENCE IS STILL ALIVE LISTEN CLOSELY
NO WISDOM, NO DEVICE, NO KNOWLEDGE, NO WISDOM IN THE GRAVE.
THIS IS VERY CLEAR TO UNDERSTAND LANGUAGE.

2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

THIS IS A LATTER DAY WARNING TO FOLLOW THE BIBLE NOT FABLES AND OLD WIVES TALES!!



2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
a CLEAR WARNING NOT TO FOLLOW CUNNINGLY DEVISED FABLES



2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
PURGATORY WAS INVENTED BY CHURCHES TO COLLECT INDULEGANCES, MONEY COULD BUY YOU OUT OF PURGATORY. iF THERE IS NO PURGATORY THE CHURCH LOSES A LOT OF MONEY OVER THE YEARS.



Ecc 9:11 I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race [is] not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.


Ecc 9:12 For man also knoweth not his time: as the fishes that are taken in an evil net, and as the birds that are caught in the snare; so [are] the sons of men snared in an evil time, when it falleth suddenly upon them.
WE ARE TOLD ABRAHAM AND KING DAVID ARE IN THE GRAVE WAITING RESSURECTION.

May God bless your study of His Holy Bible

Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader

In another thread, BruceG posted the following:



I am sure that Purgatory was the last thing on his mind when he posted it, but I wanted to use this as a basis for talking about Purgatory, because it reflects a fundamental truth about Purgatory.

At one point he states, "with God's help, we clean ourselves up over what...say the next 20-30 years". This is true. Even though we are saved by Gods grace, our growth in Christ - our "sanctification" - is a lifelong process. Even at the very end, just seconds before death, we are still not perfect. Again, as Bruce points out, "we get more religious as we go, but still, at the end, we are never free from our sinful nature". This is true.

The Bible states that "nothing unclean shall enter heaven". Yet, as Bruce points out, even at death we are not perfect yet. So, what must happen between death and glory? What must happen is the final, last step in that lifelong process of sanctification. The final bit of sanctification upon death is the completion of that process. We call that Purgatory - a "purging" of whatever imperfections are left at the end of life, and whatever temporal punishments we did not endure due to our sins. God's perfect justice demands the latter, and entrance into heaven where "nothing unclean" can enter demands the former.

Let me approach this another way which may clarify what I am saying. God is a consuming fire. In fact the word Seraphim actually comes from the Hebrew which means the "burning" ones. They burn with the flame that is God because they are near God. This is why nothing unclean can enter heaven. It would burn away in a flash in the presence of God. You can think of Purgatory as the fire of God's love. When you die and stand before God, whatever imperfections are left in you, whatever inclinations to sin you were not able to master in this life, all this will be burned - "purged" - away in the fire of Gods love.

Picture the sequence: You become a Christian, and through your life you grow, in holiness and sancification. You sin less and less as the years pass. Just before you die, you have run a good race, but you are not yet perfect. Then you pass from this realm and stand before God, and WHOOSSHHHH, that last bit of imperfection is blasted away from you when you come into the presence of a perfection that our mortal minds cannot even fathom.

This is Purgatory: Not a place, not a second chance, but the fire of the love of the almighty eternal God.

.


(BTW: Purgatory is only for the saved. It is not a "third place". It is only for those judged for heaven.)

LOL, I did grant my permission to use what I stated. But in the way you presented it, you have sort of "altered" what I said as if it was my contention as truth. What it was was my contention that brethren, these things ougth not be so. Not upset, just pointing it out.

BUT, now that you have presented your views and being an open forum, I would like to state what I believe and have found true in my own experience.

The items you quoted from my original post are what we find for the most part is our experience in "normal" Christianity. It is though, not Biblical Christianity. Nowhere does God promise less than full deliverance in THIS life. God's word says this:

"And may the God of peace sanctify you wholly, body, soul and spirit and may you be preserved blameless unto the coming of the Lord."

There is an explanation as to why we do not see people being set free now, why instead we see them still bound in graveclothes when they should be walking in newness of life.

"You have forsaken Me, the fountain of living waters, and hewn out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water."

In our unbelief, we have cast aside faith in a God who can set free and become content with clanging our leg iron chains together in unison together to the sounds of "How Great Thou Art", hearts empty, joy withered from the hearts of men and sadly, a laughing stock to the world.

Are we really ready to limit the God of the Universe in our doctrines so that we accept defeat from the devil and swallow it as if it is the gospel? Shame on us if our answer is yes.

I alluded above to the fact my experience was proving our commonly held beliefs as false. I have another eye-opening post if any care to read it in the delivering power of God that by His grace I have found in my life.

May God bless you all.

Bruce:
I'm sorry if I altered what you meant to say. That surely was not my intent.

At any rate: To me it boils down to two simple facts:

1) We are not perfect in this life
2) In heaven we are perfect (Heb 12: 22-24 speakes of "the spirits of righteous men made perfect")

So, between death and heaven we are somehow made perfect. Call it what you will, but there seems to be no escaping that fact

Originally Posted by Joshua888

Lets see what Solomon says about purgatory.......

He says nothing about it. Heaven had not been opened yet in the days of Soloman. And Purgatory is merely the process by which the imperfect can enter into God's presence in Heaven.

Catholic crusader said.
(BTW: Purgatory is only for the saved. It is not a "third place". It is only for those judged for heaven.)


2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.


2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;


2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
This thread is not about heaven so I must start a new thread.

The meek shall inherit the earth.

Here is a hypothetical give & take I found online.
I thought it was pretty good.
SOURCE LINK


OBJECTOR: The Catholic Church claims to follow the teachings of the Bible, but I can find no mention of Purgatory in Scripture.

CATHOLIC: Before I show you some biblical references, tell me what you understand by the Catholic teaching on purgatory, because I often find that it is misunderstood.

OBJECTOR: Purgatory is like a second chance for people who have not been good disciples of Jesus in this world. If they didn’t follow him, they can work off their sins in purgatory and go to heaven. I see purgatory as another instance of the Catholic dependence on good works as a means of salvation. Purgatory is not heaven or hell but an in-between state in which people are punished for their wrongs in this life that were not forgiven.

CATHOLIC: Your understanding is not what the Catholic Church teaches. It may surprise you to know that the Church makes very few binding statements about what purgatory is. The sections in the Catechism of the Catholic Church are very short. The most important statement is: "All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven" (CCC 1030). So, you see, purgatory is not a second chance after this life. It is only for those who "die in God’s grace and friendship."

OBJECTOR: What does it mean to "die in God’s grace and friendship"? Romans 10:9 says that if you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, you will be saved. It doesn’t say anything about undergoing a purification after death. All the holiness we need to enter heaven is in Christ. If we trust him, we will be saved.

CATHOLIC: The language of dying in God’s grace is another way of saying that when we die we must have faith in Christ, as Romans 10:9 says. But Paul did not intend his words in this text to be taken as the complete story. We have to interpret one text in the Bible in the light of the whole Bible.

OBJECTOR: I agree, but there is not one word about purgatory in the Bible.

CATHOLIC: Look at 1 Corinthians 3:14–15: "If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire." You see, the Latinate word purgatory means a purgation or burning by fire. Paul in these verses refers to a purgation process whereby a man is saved even though his works are burned away. This is precisely what the Catholic Church teaches. A person at death who still has personal faults is prevented from entering into heaven because he is not completely purified. He must go through a period of purgation in order to be made clean, for nothing unclean will enter heaven (cf. Rev. 21:27).

OBJECTOR: You said we need to interpret verses of the Bible in context, but you left out verse 13: "Each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done." You see it speaks about "the Day." That means the Day of Judgment, not some intermediate state of purgatory.

CATHOLIC: Of course we don’t really know what day Paul is talking about, so it would be arbitrary to limit it to the final Day of Judgment. I take it that we both believe in a personal judgment after death and a general judgment at the end of history.

OBJECTOR: Yes, but it makes much more sense to me to read this as referring to the general judgment. It speaks about a day that brings one’s work to light, not about a process of purification. Even if this text could refer to the personal judgment, it doesn’t show that the Catholic notion of purgatory is true.

CATHOLIC: Assuming that the text could refer to the personal judgment, what do you see in the idea of purgatory that’s not found in this passage?

OBJECTOR: Well, the most obvious difference is that it doesn’t mention anything like praying for the dead, which is a major part of the Church’s teaching on purgatory.

CATHOLIC: I agree that these verses don’t mention prayers for the dead, but other passages in the Bible do. The most obvious is 2 Maccabees 12:40–45. When Judas prays and has sacrifices offered for soldiers who died in battle, he is commended for acting "very well and honorably."

OBJECTOR: The book of 2 Maccabees isn’t inspired, so you can’t say that this shows scriptural support for purgatory.

CATHOLIC: We’ll have to discuss the inspiration of Maccabees some other time, but at least this passage shows that even before Christ the Jewish people recognized the need for purification from sins after death and believed that the prayers and sacrifices of those still living could aid in this purification. The Catholic Church didn’t make up this idea.

OBJECTOR: Well, even if the Catholic Church didn’t make it up, that doesn’t mean it’s true. We are under the New Covenant, so many of the precepts of the Old Law, such as dietary laws, no longer apply. This need for purification after death could be one of those things.

CATHOLIC: I agree that we cannot say that everything present in Judaism before Christ is something that applies to our state after Christ. Even so, the indication in Maccabees of purification after death is not a precept but a belief, and so it is not in the same category as dietary laws. Furthermore, the New Testament shows a continuity with this idea. For example, Matthew 12:32 says that some people who sin "will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come." This suggests that there are some sins that will be forgiven in the age to come. If there is no purification after death, then this passage doesn’t make much sense.

OBJECTOR: Jesus wasn’t speaking about the distinction between this life and the next; rather, he was making a distinction between the age under the Old Covenant and the age under the New Covenant.

CATHOLIC: That interpretation doesn’t make sense, though, because it doesn’t fit with the context of the verse. Right before this, Jesus had been casting out demons, and he announced that the kingdom of God had come. He’s saying that the kingdom of God is already present; it would make little sense for him to then refer to the dominion of the kingdom as an "age to come."

OBJECTOR: Even so, this could just mean that at the moment of our death, we are purified and forgiven. The testing in 1 Corinthians 3:14–15 could be instantaneous. I don’t see any evidence in the Bible that souls actually exist after death in a state of existence that is neither heaven nor hell.

CATHOLIC: The Church doesn’t exclude the possibility that purgatory could be an instantaneous purification, but there are indications in the Bible that souls do exist in some state that is neither heaven nor hell. Look at 1 Peter 3:19–20. These verses show Jesus preaching to "to the spirits in prison." The "prison" cannot be heaven, because the people there do not need to have the Gospel preached to them. It cannot be hell, because the souls in hell cannot repent. It must be something else. As you can see, there is nothing unbiblical about the claim that those who have died might not immediately go to heaven or to hell.

OBJECTOR: Even if the passages you cite do refer to some state other than heaven or hell, this doesn’t automatically imply purgatory, because the "spirits in prison" died before Christ’s sacrifice opened the way to heaven. The condition in 1 Peter is not necessarily the same as purgatory.

CATHOLIC: It is certainly possible that the state mentioned here, often called "the limbo of the fathers," is a state other than that of purgatory, but at least we’ve established that there is nothing contrary to Scripture in asserting that those who have died can be in a temporary state other than heaven or hell.

OBJECTOR: Well, I can understand why people who died before Christ might have been in a state other than heaven or hell, but the idea of purgatory seems inconsistent with the love of God. If God really loves us, why would he want us to go to purgatory and suffer for our sins?

CATHOLIC: On the contrary, the idea of purgatory, when properly understood, is entirely consistent with the love of God. God wants us to be perfect (cf. Matt. 5:48). If we are not perfected by the time we die, we will be perfected in purgatory. He loves us too much to allow us to be less than what he created us to be. Purgatory is not about an angry God inflicting punishment upon his creatures. It is about a loving Father who "disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness" (Heb. 12:10).

Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader

Bruce:
I'm sorry if I altered what you meant to say. That surely was not my intent.

At any rate: To me it boils down to two simple facts:

1) We are not perfect in this life
2) In heaven we are perfect (Heb 12: 22-24 speakes of "the spirits of righteous men made perfect")

So, between death and heaven we are somehow made perfect. Call it what you will, but there seems to be no escaping that fact


He says nothing about it. Heaven had not been opened yet in the days of Soloman. And Purgatory is merely the process by which the imperfect can enter into God's presence in Heaven.

Brother, I certainly know you meant no harm in your quoting me. LOL. We disagree as to how, but by gosh, I know a saviour who longs to set us free. As to when, we might debate a bit and still not change each others minds, but I can accept that fact. God bless you.

Purgatory is a doctrine of a demon and those who teach it, are deceived.

Originally Posted by Moose

Purgatory is a doctrine of a demon and those who teach it, are deceived.

Oh. Well, since you put it that way.................