I am confused. I am having a hard time with what most say is the gospel. Let me summarize. We get saved by grace thru faith, right? Then afterwards, with God's help, we clean ourselves up over what...say the next 20-30 years, killing our flesh little by little. Of course, now understand, it never really dies. We just get closer and closer, a little less of self, a little more of Him. That is a pretty fair accessment of the situation, isn't it?

Here is the bottom line result of that belief system. Sins that we started out with, we still battle. Of, we get more religious as we go, but still, at the end, we are never free from our sinful nature, right? To say we finally have defeated it is actually considered the epitomy of pride and self deception and to some, it is actually viewed as blasphemy. We just eventually find a happy medium of compromise where we go to church but inwardly we still balttle lusts of the flesh, lusts of the eyes and the pride of life.

So I was thinking, this is not very good news for those whose "sins go before them", you know, the yucky very plainly repulsive sins, like being a drug addict, or an alcoholic or a prostitute or someone with sexual deviancy, or a gambling addict. As long as we have those "acceptable sins" to the other religious folks, all is fine and we can go to church, sing in the choir, even preach in the pulpit, even though self is alive and well, worldliness is rampant in our lives, we still are full of pride and self-will, and money and things are our true love but it is ok, because we fit in so well with others with the same loves.You know, socially acceptable sins. The important thing is to have nice lamps and outwardly clean cups, isn't it?

To people with those sins that follow after them, Christianity is a wide open invitation, for after all, "Christ forgives us our little sins, does He not? Thank God we are not like those prostitutes and addicts!"


Yet, for those with those "yucky" sins, the socially unacceptable ones, what hope do we have to offer them? I mean, would we welcome into our congregations drug addicts who keep falling off the wagon for 20 years? I mean, God is patient with our sins, but not with theirs? Do you think we would tolerate someone "high" coming into church...really? Let them be a deacon, or even preach in our pulpits?Again and again for years? C'mon now, let's be real here. Yet, there can be a man secretly eyeing all the attractive women in church on a Sunday morning whose mind races constantly with lustful thoughts and He can be a deacon in the church, or even the preacher, and hey, let's not judge, right? After all, we are only human.

Something stinks in Denmark. It is a gospel that sets no one free, but simply allows nice "acceptable" sins to be forgiven while those with yucky ones are destined for Hell.


God grant us to see that we need to return with broken hearts and contrition to a gospel that sets free all captives, no matter the "quality" of the sin. and that whether we want to admit it or not, a captive is a captive. There are no good sinners and no bad sinners. There are simply sinners needing to be delivered from themselves, from their flesh.

Either our gospel that really works on all, or it works on no one. And if we have a gospel that works on no one, we darned well better hit our knees and ask Him for the answer.

We need to see that our acceptable sins, our "human frailties" (it sounds so much nicer!) still welcome in our lives after serving Him for years, calls into question our very salvation experience, and puts us in imminent danger of facing God's anger rather than His mercy.


"The night is far spent, the day is at hand, and we still are not saved".


Listen, saints of God, have you made peace with your sins? A nice co-existance relationship? They don't bother you, you don't bother them? Whether you are aware of it or not, you are in extreme danger, for repentance means "turning away from". Our saviour was named Jesus because He was to "save His people FROM their sins, not in them!

We desperately need to find the answer to the question of HOW? How do we defeat Satan once and for all in our lives so we can go to the lost and remove their chains as well. Instead, we have been like the pharisees that do not go into liberty ourselves, and block the way for others so that they do not go in either.


God grant us to find your victory that is a victory indeed. May God raise up Christians who have discovered the secret to dying to self, who can boldly say "It works! It works! My God has set me free, and if me then you! No matter how bad, , no matter how perverse, if you long to be free, Christ longs to make you free! No matter how debilitating, God can set you free from your sin!" Honestly now, how often have you ever heard someone say that?


The scary part is that there are so few crying out for freedom from bondage to their sinful natures. Why is it that Christians will rather fight to defend their bondage as "normal" because "No one is perfect, right?" They will actually argue for sin if someone comes and says God meant what He said when he said "Sin shall NOT have dominion over you". For all who are confused, let me clear it up. He meant it.


God promises liberty, freedom for the captives. Do we believe Him or will we continue down our road of simply having hell insurance? God help those who make that choice to rest with their sins in unbelief rather than believe all that God has promised. He died to set us free indeed. The question now remains... what will you do?

[Amadeus]

The promise is still there! While don't we just go for it? Is He not able? Glory to His name!

Originally Posted by BruceG

I am confused. I am having a hard time with what most say is the gospel. Let me summarize. We get saved by grace thru faith, right? Then afterwards, with God's help, we clean ourselves up over what...say the next 20-30 years, killing our flesh little by little. Of course, now understand, it never really dies. We just get closer and closer, a little less of self, a little more of Him. That is a pretty fair accessment of the situation, isn't it?

Here is the bottom line result of that belief system. Sins that we started out with, we still battle. Of, we get more religious as we go, but still, at the end, we are never free from our sinful nature, right? To say we finally have defeated it is actually considered the epitomy of pride and self deception and to some, it is actually viewed as blasphemy. We just eventually find a happy medium of compromise where we go to church but inwardly we still balttle lusts of the flesh, lusts of the eyes and the pride of life.

So I was thinking, this is not very good news for those whose "sins go before them", you know, the yucky very plainly repulsive sins, like being a drug addict, or an alcoholic or a prostitute or someone with sexual deviancy, or a gambling addict. As long as we have those "acceptable sins" to the other religious folks, all is fine and we can go to church, sing in the choir, even preach in the pulpit, even though self is alive and well, worldliness is rampant in our lives, we still are full of pride and self-will, and money and things are our true love but it is ok, because we fit in so well with others with the same loves.You know, socially acceptable sins. The important thing is to have nice lamps and outwardly clean cups, isn't it?

To people with those sins that follow after them, Christianity is a wide open invitation, for after all, "Christ forgives us our little sins, does He not? Thank God we are not like those prostitutes and addicts!"


Yet, for those with those "yucky" sins, the socially unacceptable ones, what hope do we have to offer them? I mean, would we welcome into our congregations drug addicts who keep falling off the wagon for 20 years? I mean, God is patient with our sins, but not with theirs? Do you think we would tolerate someone "high" coming into church...really? Let them be a deacon, or even preach in our pulpits?Again and again for years? C'mon now, let's be real here. Yet, there can be a man secretly eyeing all the attractive women in church on a Sunday morning whose mind races constantly with lustful thoughts and He can be a deacon in the church, or even the preacher, and hey, let's not judge, right? After all, we are only human.

Something stinks in Denmark. It is a gospel that sets no one free, but simply allows nice "acceptable" sins to be forgiven while those with yucky ones are destined for Hell.


God grant us to see that we need to return with broken hearts and contrition to a gospel that sets free all captives, no matter the "quality" of the sin. and that whether we want to admit it or not, a captive is a captive. There are no good sinners and no bad sinners. There are simply sinners needing to be delivered from themselves, from their flesh.

Either our gospel that really works on all, or it works on no one. And if we have a gospel that works on no one, we darned well better hit our knees and ask Him for the answer.

We need to see that our acceptable sins, our "human frailties" (it sounds so much nicer!) still welcome in our lives after serving Him for years, calls into question our very salvation experience, and puts us in imminent danger of facing God's anger rather than His mercy.


"The night is far spent, the day is at hand, and we still are not saved".


Listen, saints of God, have you made peace with your sins? A nice co-existance relationship? They don't bother you, you don't bother them? Whether you are aware of it or not, you are in extreme danger, for repentance means "turning away from". Our saviour was named Jesus because He was to "save His people FROM their sins, not in them!

We desperately need to find the answer to the question of HOW? How do we defeat Satan once and for all in our lives so we can go to the lost and remove their chains as well. Instead, we have been like the pharisees that do not go into liberty ourselves, and block the way for others so that they do not go in either.


God grant us to find your victory that is a victory indeed. May God raise up Christians who have discovered the secret to dying to self, who can boldly say "It works! It works! My God has set me free, and if me then you! No matter how bad, , no matter how perverse, if you long to be free, Christ longs to make you free! No matter how debilitating, God can set you free from your sin!" Honestly now, how often have you ever heard someone say that?


The scary part is that there are so few crying out for freedom from bondage to their sinful natures. Why is it that Christians will rather fight to defend their bondage as "normal" because "No one is perfect, right?" They will actually argue for sin if someone comes and says God meant what He said when he said "Sin shall NOT have dominion over you". For all who are confused, let me clear it up. He meant it.


God promises liberty, freedom for the captives. Do we believe Him or will we continue down our road of simply having hell insurance? God help those who make that choice to rest with their sins in unbelief rather than believe all that God has promised. He died to set us free indeed. The question now remains... what will you do?

Bruce,
I've contemplated what I would answer in response to this; I am not sure that I could explain it but I will attempt to give you a response as to what I believe.
You have stated before that in the latter 60's/ 70's you had an experience like so many with the "Way" or the "Jesus Movement" as so many did which was if I remember correctly not so much from you but from many a movement which was identified by the pentecostal/charismatic. It was alive and moving and many things happened and many were saved and filled with the Holy Spirit. It was new and radical and during I believe the tail end of the hippy days (you can correct me if I am wrong) I was still in JH. There were many things taught then which were probably not as scripturally sound as it could have been. There were those who left all different denominations to jump on the band wagon and churches popped up everywhere known as full gospel. Many later left these churches and didn't go to church at all or went to other churches as often there were within these churches many of the problems that you speak of in this thread. I have over time talked with many of these people and seen the remnant of these churches. I only know of one that exists out of three I know existed from that era. You have stated that you kind of went your own way not forsaking God but not attending church either for a number of years. Having said this think of how many did the same and could some of them also be in the finding themselves where you were a year ago?
For all those who did go to these churches and did attend, what kind of teaching did they get? I do not say that all of these churches were wrong but I do know that a fair share had their difficulties and that some even yes got what I believe is "out of balance;" when I say that I mean it took the focus off Christ and put it on something like deliverance ministry (there is a devil behind every bush and everyone had a demon but the truth be known you can't cast out flesh). This is merely an example that sticks out in my mind. Since that time there has been alot of merchandizing of the "anointing;" teaching which is false.
AW Tozer wrote an article about a different kind of cross being preached in evangelism and within this type of cross "doesn't demand renunciation of the old life before a new lifecan be received. He preaches not contrasts but similiarities. He seeks to key into public interest by showing that christianity makes no unpleasant demands; rather it offers the same thing the world does only on a higher level." This sounds pretty much in line with what you are talking about. This was written some time ago but yet is pretty in line with what is actually happening in what is called the "emergent church."
We are told to consider the cost regarding the cross and isn't this really what you are talking about. I believe that it might be more beneficial if you were to break this down perhaps and maybe do a thread on the cross and what it means as it means more than just the victorious life.
When I read what you write I don't understand exactly what church or person you are talking to or about but I do know that there are many people laced within most churces with secret sins. Seriously I think, how could or would anyone really serve in the capacities which you mention and not have a conviction of the Holy Spirit? It would have to be a pretty sloppy agape to do so without conviction, but thenthis is only what I believe.

Originally Posted by Amadeus

The promise is still there! While don't we just go for it? Is He not able? Glory to His name!

Amadeus, you are absolutely right. He is able (in HIS words, not mine) to do exceedingly abundantly above and beyond all that we ask or think. It is time we realize the reason we see such little movement of God in His church is simple- we are limiting Him by our unbelief. Unbelief is not a weakness, it is sin and we finally need to acknowledge that and believe our wonderful lord again.

If we find ourselves in defeat, ask for Grace. It is natural to want to reject yourself when you have failed. But God does not count us out! Failure might lead to dispair, but when we recieve the grace of God it lifts our souls above our troubles and we rejoice in Him yet again. As David said'' why is my soul downcast? I shall again PRAISE the lord!'' When you have compassion on your own soul you have evidence that God's grace has flooded your soul. Forgive yourself. Lift up your eyes! Put your eyes on Jesus, and you shall soon loose track of your failures.God said, ''I will fight FOR you''

[PastorCathi]

I would like to briefly comment on your reference to 1Ti 5:24 Some men's sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; and some men they follow after.

Those sins that 'go before' are the ones that have already been repented of, forgiven, judged, and blotted out by the Blood, never to be remembered against us again. Those whose sins follow after them are those who have rejected salvation, therefore their sins remain.

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Rom 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

Blessings,
Cathi

Originally Posted by PastorCathi

I would like to briefly comment on your reference to 1Ti 5:24 Some men's sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; and some men they follow after.

Those sins that 'go before' are the ones that have already been repented of, forgiven, judged, and blotted out by the Blood, never to be remembered against us again. Those whose sins follow after them are those who have rejected salvation, therefore their sins remain.

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Rom 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

Blessings,
Cathi

Hi Cathi, thanks for your comments. Yes, forgiveness is a miracle of God. We must realize though that in todays church, we have made grace an easy street pathway to glory. We repent over the same failures again and again, so much so that we simply do not even believe any more that real full deliverance even exists anymore. We must not forget that the blessing of real forgiveness and full victory is for those who have died to their flesh, been renewed in the spirt of their mind and put on the new man, created in righteousness and true holiness. The blessing of righteousness comes to those who have given up in their abilities to walk in obedience in their strength and put on His alone. The man at the wedding feast without the wedding garment is a stark reminder that we are to "put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill the lusts thereof."

To those who have done so, the rest of God is theirs to enjoy as they find all the promises of God are yea and amen. But if sin and failure and self-will are still our companions, it is not time to rest but to take the cross as our own, embrace it and let it do its work in our hearts. Only then will the peace of God that so many lack, be able to set free.

Originally Posted by BruceG

I am confused. I am having a hard time with what most say is the gospel. Let me summarize. We get saved by grace thru faith, right? Then afterwards, with God's help, we clean ourselves up over what...say the next 20-30 years, killing our flesh little by little. Of course, now understand, it never really dies. We just get closer and closer, a little less of self, a little more of Him. That is a pretty fair accessment of the situation, isn't it?

Here is the bottom line result of that belief system. Sins that we started out with, we still battle. Of, we get more religious as we go, but still, at the end, we are never free from our sinful nature, right? To say we finally have defeated it is actually considered the epitomy of pride and self deception.......

Oh my goodness.
I would love to use this as a basis for a thread on "Purgatory".

I won't derail your thread though.

Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader

Oh my goodness.
I would love to use this as a basis for a thread on "Purgatory".

I won't derail your thread though.

Although I do not want to derail the intent as well, and I really appreciate your willingness to be respectfuyl, thank you, I will say this. I believe in essence there is a "purgatory" for Christians. it is the period of time from initial salvation to the time they fall at the feet of the master to confess their weakness and ask for His full armor that quenches all the fiery darts of the wicked one. Sadly though, for many, their purgatory lasts their entire Christian life on earth.

With that said, if you want to use what I said in your own post to discuss your views, you certainly have my permission to do so. I will add what I can if led. Deal?

Oh, by the way, did you hear on the job in Oakland yet?

Originally Posted by BruceG

.......if you want to use what I said in your own post to discuss your views, you certainly have my permission to do so. I will add what I can if led. Deal?

Oh, by the way, did you hear on the job in Oakland yet?

1) Yes, I did not get the job. I'm sure they had a million applicants. Oh well, something else will come up.

2) I started the other thread here:
Purgatory