[christkid777]

Here we go again. But I feel this is a relevant subject. Who and what is the anti Christ. The first place to look is at the Christ Himself. What was Christ? He was a number of things. He was the Son of God. He was the awaited Messiah. He was the revealer of the Word of God. He brought grace and truth to light. The anti Christ will work to reverse these things. He is "anti" Christ. He is the undoer of Christ. Because he needs credibility he will claim to represent God. His linage will reflect the covenant of Abraham. He will also claim to be a messiah of sorts. He will claim the right to call a people by his name. He will offer a false revelation of God's Word. He will create condemnation and falsehood, the opposite of grace and truth. Because Christ was seeking a bride, the anti Christ will compete with Christ for His bride. Because Christ promised a future hope the anti will offer another version of future hope. In all his workings the anti will seek to draw attention away from Christ and place it upon himself. He is the personal enemy of Christ. His only purpose is to undo Christ. If you accept what I have written then you can see that not every powerful world figure can be the anti.

I will share some things I feel God has shown me about this matter. The first is that the devil did not know he would need an anti Christ. It was not his plan. He did not know the true nature of the Christ so was caught off gaurd when the Christ was revealed. It seems likely he expected the lion of the tribe of Judah, not the lamb of God. When Christ was easily taken and killed he might have thought the matter was finished. The devil had proved to himself that Jesus was the Christ during the temptation in the wilderness. It was not until some three hundred years latter when the thousands of years old Roman empire fell, converted to the Christ that the devil realized the true nature of what the Christ had done. I think it was then he realized the need to combat the Christ in a different way. But the ways of the Christ were unlike any ever seen before. Military might had failed to have any real effect on the Christ and His words. Nor had political power and conspiracy. The only hope of undoing the Christ was to undo His Word, or create doubt as to the legitimacy of His Word. This gives insight into the nature of the anti.

Another idea I would like to bring out is the effect of the Word of God on the kingdom of darkness. It was much like a poison in reverse. Instead of destroying life it gave life. But it killed deception and rebellion, the corner stones of the devils kingdom. It was much like a venom had been injected into darkness which destroyed it's power. With such poison coursing through the veins of darkness something had to be done. At the rate things were going the earth would be converted to Christ in very short order. A way had to be found soon to end the destruction of darkness. This also gives insight into the anti. If you or I were to be bitten by a venomous snake we would take the anti venom as soon as we were able. The anti Christ has to come forth sooner rather than latter. He is found close to the beginning and not close to the end when his efforts would have little effect and the kingdom of darkness had already been destroyed.

This all I will write for now. A little latter I will use the edit feature to add more. If you are willing, share your thoughts on this.

The snake/dragon

Another thought I would like to share is the nature of the seven headed dragon. When I first started reading the Bible I got the impression the dragon was a singular creature. After several years of study I now think the dragon is the manifestation of the devils kingdom through time. It starts off as a one headed snake. When the head is cut off the devil must seek to re establish his place and so he grows another head. Using Daniel's interpretation of Nebuchadnezzar's vision I would chose the nation of Assyria as the first head. The criteria for identifying a head that I use are firstly their hostility to the God of Abraham. Secondly their thirst for conquest. Then their assertion of the elitist mentality, the ides that certain people were "better" than others and more qualified to rule. Then they must become powerful enough to dominate and pose a threat to all their neighbors, so much so that anyone wishing to travel or trade must take their presence into consideration. They must dominate "the whole world" in a manner of speaking. Using this guideline I would identify the seven headed dragon as: Assyria, then the Medio-Persian empire, then the Greek empire, then the Roman empire, then the Muslim empire, then the Nazi empire and lastly the Communist empire seated in Russia. Though it is not specified in scripture each of the heads was cut off in their time and replaced with the next nation to seek dominance. Once cut off these heads were never to regain their former glory. Well, there was this one head which seemed to have been cut off but now seems to have come back to life....

The ambiguity of prophetic fulfillment.

In simple terms ambiguity can mean clear to one person but obscure to another. Perhaps the best scriptural example is the coming of Christ. To us who call upon His name He is the awaited messiah and coming Lord and is very real. To the un-redeemed Jews and most others His reality and place are uncertain. Prophetic fulfillment is often this way. Some see certain events as prophecy fulfilled and some only see events unfolding. When we look back through two thousand years of history it stands to reason that much has been fulfilled. It is not always clear when this took place but it is there. In the church we often make reference to "secular" history and Christian history. There is really only one history, Christian or Biblical history. The whole of history is merely a vessel for fulfillment of Christ Words. The fact that the unredeemed are riding out the events of history is only coincidence. Without the upholding of Christ history would cease. The events of secular history are really the events of prophecy fulfilling the Word of God. But it is hard to know when we are in the midst of prophetic fulfillment. There are no billboards proclaiming the events. When Christ came few were so sure just what He was. For them it was life as usual and this was the newest thing on the evening news. So it is for us today. We have the advantage of looking back to see what is written about Christ by the few who did understand. But we can not see what is happening across the street in our own time. Finding the events which point the way to the anti Christ requires a search through history. The keys are found in scripture. If your mind is bound by tradition or you fear losing your salvation the search for these keys can be fruitless. You must pray and trust God. There are many people He has tried to speak to who throw up their tradition and rebuke the devil. Understand that no matter how strange the descriptions of things and events seem in the Word the reality of their fulfillment will look like day to day life from the perspective of those living in that time. As will these events when viewed in history.

A disagreement with Rev 19

I see a problem with Rev 19. At least in the KJV. Not in it's legitimacy or accuracy but with the interpretation of the translation of the word "enwpion". The job of a translator has got to be like walking on pins and needles. Especially when working with the book of Revelations. I don't judge them. But when I consider what scripture say about the beast and false prophet I run into the KJV version of Rev 19 like a wall. The false prophet builds an image to the beast. Why? If the beast were there in person why build an image to him? In the eyes of some that would be an insult. IMO the false prophet builds an image to the beast in order to create a link between the beast and himself. He wants the people to see his devotion to what the beast stands for. The beast represents something the false prophet wants to use for his own political gains. If the beast were there in person this would be un necessary. The false prophet would simply turn and point to the beast and say "worship him". IMO the beast and false prophet are not contemporaries. This implies the beast was at some past time a very important person who left behind a powerful legacy and the false prophet wants to tap into this legacy. He wants the people to give him the same recognition and service they gave the beast. He wants to rebuild the social and political structure of the beast with himself as the head. So he has to convince the people he and the beast are one in spirit and purpose. Hence the "image of the beast". But Rev 19 uses the word "enwpion" to mean "in the presence of", implying the two are together at the same time. But the most common use of the word is "before" and "in the sight of". Neither common interpretation imply the beast and false prophet must be contemporaries. IMO the interpretation "in the sight of" is most likely. An example would be "The people did what was right in the sight of the Lord". This implies a common sense of purpose. This purpose would be the resumtion of the destruction of the legacy of the Christ. The false prophet will, as the beast, make it his mission to bring down Christianity to it's knees. And some modern translations such as the NIV seem to agree with "in the sight of". Once the perception of relationship in time is broken the search for the beast can take on new dimension.

What is the image?

The image depends on the beast. If the beast were a goat the image would be a goat. If the beast were a man the image would be a man. But the beast is both a man and a kingdom. The anti Christ, or beast, is a man. The seven headed dragon is the beast and is a kingdom existing through thousands of years of time and seven different manifestations. In my understanding when the seventh head is cut off the devil has no choice but returns to the only previous manifestation of his legacy still able to help him accomplish his desire. When communist Russia was reduced to common status the seventh head had no more power to fulfill the devil's desire. He was forced to return to a previously failed and defeated "head" to carry on his plan of world domination and destruction of the True Christ. This head had been wounded so badly in it's day that it no longer has any glory and had been left to die. It is fragmented and divided but now it represents the only hope available to the devil to have a nation of his own. His hope is to pull the head back together and re establish the form of government that existed when the "head" was in it's prime. This government lavished favor and liberties upon the elite who were part of it. As long as they were faithful to their master they could pillage, rape and enslave any they chose. The death of a slave was considered only an inconvenience. It is this government which IMO is the "image" of the beast. The false prophet is even now working to re establish this image of former power and glory where Christians will be considered enemies of the state and worthy of death.

So who is the anti Christ?

According to all I have been able to receive he is a man. Possessed by a devil. But not just any man. He is a man with a peculiar mix of faith and perversion. Lacking a complete set of human faculties he is called a wild beast. He is able to believe but lacks the necessary qualities to follow in the footsteps of the Christ. He wishes to rule his people by force rather than give his own life to save them. He is of the house of Abraham. But he is born of the self will of the flesh and not the promise of the Spirit. He is jealous of the one who has the promise of God and has set his heart on taking the promise for himself. Even if the one who has the promise has to die for him to secure it. He claims to represent God and to have received revelation from God to justify his actions. He set himself up as the replacement for Christ, claiming all people were to join together in him. Jews, Christians and Gentiles, all were to honor him as the new messiah. In the years following the rise of his people to power more than half the Christian world and all the Jewish people were destroyed, enslaved or converted to his perverse religion. Had not the common people of Europe set out to stop them all the Christian world would have been destroyed. But they were put down. And pushed back. Not far but enough for the remnants of Christianity to compose itself. Line were drawn and a peace of sorts was made. This perverse head of the dragon seemed to have been tamed, even wounded to death. The spirit of anti Christ left them to moulder in the desert. Until now. With the death of the communist head seated in Russia the dragon has no really powerful people to threaten the world. All the other heads had truly died and ceased to have any influence. Most nations of the earth pale to insignificance compared to the nation once called by the name of Christ. Our nation. They would be committing suicide to attack this land. Until we are weakened from within. There was only this one people left who once served the interest of the beast. So he is trying to resurrect them. Once again all who travel must consider them before making their plans. All who trade must plan their routs carefully to avoid setting them off. They are on the news every night and day. Once again they threaten the safety and lives of all people everywhere. We live daily with the fear they will attack innocent people without warning. They have caused so much death and terror that only a portion is reported to the public. And they are taking nations. It is even considered likely our own president is one of their own. So who is this anti Christ? His most well known name is Mohammed. Some call him "the prophet". His ancestral name is Ishmael. Also known as the son of the bond woman. He is the enemy of Christ, the one who raped or murdered His bride and killed His brothers. And we are to forgive and seek their salvation in the name of Christ. In the eyes of God they are lost and dying.

So why are you huddled in your churches? Your worst enemy has almost run his course. Set there much longer and you will lose this nation which is your stronghold in the earth. Time to get up and make peace with one another. Strengthen that which remains. We have a nation to re take in the name of Christ.

I will bring this back to the top of the forum. If you are interested feel free to comment.

Lets take a look at what the Bible says.
1 Jo 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.


1Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:


1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

FORGET WHAT SOMEONE TOLD YOU TRY TO GRASP WHAT THE BIBLE TEACHES

The spirit of antichrist was already in Johns time. If you deny Christ came in the flesh and instead say He is God then you are an antichrist.

1Jo 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
How can you say He is God if no man hath seen God yet we have seen Jesus.

1Jo 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
How do you explain there are many antichrists in Johns time ?
ANTICHRIST IS PLURAL NOT SINGULAR!!
The fable of a future antichrist is an old wives tale past down through the ages.
The story that you told does not use any scripture on your part but rather your opinions devoid of scripture, to prove your point.

This is very common for people who really dont use scripture.

You totally ignore the description of antichrist in the Bible.
How do explain there were many antichrists in Johns time , that does not fit your story!

1Jo 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
People dont think much for themselves but pass on what someone told them. Think of this question, can man kill God ? Thats foolish to think we could kill God.
So how did He die on the cross if He is God? You make a mockery of the cross. You deny the Father and the son. Anyone can be an antichrist.
Many Christians are rejected at the Judgment Seat of Christ, because of this error.

May God bless your study of His Holy bible

[christkid777]

Be patient Joshua.

Originally Posted by Joshua888

....This is very common for people who really dont use scripture......

Why do you accuse everyone who does not see things your way of not using the scripture?
That gets tedious after a while.

Why do you accuse everyone who does not see things your way of not using the scripture?
That gets tedious after a while
Sorry about that, I am new to this type of communication . I shall endevour in the future not to make it personal. Excuse me for my blunders.

[joedelsy]

Originally Posted by Joshua888

Lets take a look at what the Bible says.

FORGET WHAT SOMEONE TOLD YOU TRY TO GRASP WHAT THE BIBLE TEACHES

The spirit of antichrist was already in Johns time. If you deny Christ came in the flesh and instead say He is God then you are an antichrist.

1Jo 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
How can you say He is God if no man hath seen God yet we have seen Jesus.

This is very common for people who really dont use scripture.

You totally ignore the description of antichrist in the Bible.
How do explain there were many antichrists in Johns time , that does not fit your story!

1Jo 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
People dont think much for themselves but pass on what someone told them. Think of this question, can man kill God ? Thats foolish to think we could kill God.
So how did He die on the cross if He is God? You make a mockery of the cross. You deny the Father and the son. Anyone can be an antichrist.
Many Christians are rejected at the Judgment Seat of Christ, because of this error.

May God bless your study of His Holy bible

WOW.

I see that you, mighty Scripture quoter of the Bible is unaware that God Himself did come in human form on earth looong before Jesus did so there is conflict with the "no man has seen God" thingy.
Learning about the true and living God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. He spoke with man from Adam to Malachi (except for the Egyptian Captivity), to Jesus, the Apostles, in the last days, and will again face to face with Israel as He did in Egypt. He walked with Adam. Noah walked with God. Abraham mistook Him for a man and fixed a meal; which they ate together. Jacob wrestled with God and built a monument for seeing God face to face. Moses spoke with God face to face as a familiar friend; and saw most of His body in all its glory. Ezekiel told of seeing Him in the appearance of man.

There are too many conflicting scriptures which explains the chaos with Christianity. I am with you on your "Jesus is not God" belief and try to understand why others think that He is God when Scripture clearly states otherwise.
As far as the Anti goes...sure, there are tons of antichrists and anyone can be an antichrist but I believe the question at hand is the "Biblical" antichrist which is described as an individual. Singular, not plural. Read Revelation for more info.

[ElpidioLGagolinan]

Did somebody said Jesus is not God ? and somebody agreed to that ?
Either I have wrong Bibles or going to the wrong churches or listening to the wrong preachers or I don't know how to interpret the Bible or I have been deceived ? The Deity of our Lord Jesus Christ is one of the essential doctrines of our Christian faith. Woe is me if I put a deaf ear to this. Oh common guys, you must be joking ? are you not ? If you are joking , this is not funny.

[joedelsy]

Originally Posted by ElpidioLGagolinan

Did somebody said Jesus is not God ? and somebody agreed to that ?
Either I have wrong Bibles or going to the wrong churches or listening to the wrong preachers or I don't know how to interpret the Bible or I have been deceived ? The Deity of our Lord Jesus Christ is one of the essential doctrines of our Christian faith. Woe is me if I put a deaf ear to this. Oh common guys, you must be joking ? are you not ? If you are joking , this is not funny.

Rev 3:12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name


This is Jesus Himself speaking by the way.

[truth2010]

Originally Posted by joedelsy

Rev 3:12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name


This is Jesus Himself speaking by the way.

Brother, Jesus is not the father but He is part of a "Godhood", a Hierarchy.. The father refers to Jesus as God too.. Just like we are human singularly but plural, Jesus is God singularly but plural too (if that makes sense). See this.

"Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high: 4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows." Hebrews 1:2-9

God says unto the SON "Thy throne, O GOD..." Jesus is God but NOT the Father. Jesus created the heavens and the earth... I can provide more scripture to support this. God bless Joe!!

[christkid777]

OK guys, get out you sticks and stones. I won't take this any further. Unless you make me. If you say anything try to keep it short enough that people will read it and can respond.