Hypothesis for discussion:
There is one God. I believe that and I know God knows that. So many thousands of years ago, if someone said or wrote down that there was more than one God, it couldn’t have been God talking, nor could the writing have been inspired by God. That means, if the biblical writings in any way suggest there is more than one God, that writing is not God inspired writing.



The Evidence
God tells a man and a woman that they may not eat a certain fruit. They eat it anyway.
3:22Then the LORD God said, "See, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever.
"One of us"? If there's only one God, who could the "us" be referring to

But, things are far more complicated than an ambiguous reference to “US”.
Take, for instance, the First Commandment. 20:2I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; you shall have no other gods before me.
Note the wording carefully: "no other gods before me." The writer could have said, you shall have no other gods<period>--ended the sentence with the word "gods." He could have said "instead of me," but he didn't do that either. The passage acknowledges that there are other gods and implies that having other gods is all right, just so long as you keep YHWH first. This reflects a classic biblical henotheist perspective: that is to say, it assumes the existence of many gods and the primacy of one, as opposed to the existence of only one.

The one true God would never say such things. But a primitive human whose culture is evolving from henotheism to monotheism, would.

Begin looking and you find repeated flashes of henotheism. Here are a few.
Exodus 12:12.
On that same night I will pass through Egypt and strike down every firstborn—both men and animals—and I will bring judgment on all the gods of Egypt. I am the LORD.
Deuteronomy 6:14-15.
Do not follow other gods, any of the gods of the peoples who are all around you, because the LORD your God, who is present with you, is a jealous God.
Joshua 24:2, 14-15.
Long ago your ancestors -- Terah and his sons Abraham and Nahor -- lived beyond the Euphrates and served other gods. [...] Now therefore revere the LORD, and serve him in sincerity and in faithfulness; put away the gods that your ancestors served beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the LORD. Now if you are unwilling to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served in the region beyond the River or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD.
Judges 9:9.
The olive tree answered them, "Shall I stop producing my rich oil by which both gods and mortals are honored?"2
2 Samuel 7:23.
And who is like your people Israel—the one nation on earth that God went out to redeem as a people for himself, and to make a name for himself, and to perform great and awesome wonders by driving out nations and their gods from before your people, whom you redeemed from Egypt?
2 Chronicles 2:5.
The temple I am going to build will be great, because our God is greater than all other gods.
Psalm 82:1
God has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment.3
Psalm 86:8
There is none like you among the gods, O Lord, nor are there any works like yours.
Psalm 138:1
I give you thanks, O Lord, with my whole heart; before the gods I sing your praise.
Micah 4:5
All the nations may walk in the name of their gods; we will walk in the name of the LORD our God for ever and ever.
None of these passages seems to a) require the understanding that YHWH is the only god, and
b) in fact a few seem to speak quite clearly against it.

This is what I have collected.

[Brad]

Wasn't pre-biblical society polytheistic?

Whoever was writing the bible would be hard pressed not to refer to other gods. Isn't it the case that God was being presented as the one true God and all others were false? I don't think that He came along and filled some celestial void. Everybody would have believed in something.

And if you just add a couple of quote marks, then it changes each statement:

All the nations may walk in the name of their "gods".

You can just see the guy saying it rolling his eyes and making little quote marks in the air when he says "gods", the inference being 'so-called gods'.

Atheists do it a lot...

Originally Posted by antonio

Hypothesis for discussion:
There is one God. I believe that and I know God knows that. So many thousands of years ago, if someone said or wrote down that there was more than one God, it couldn’t have been God talking, nor could the writing have been inspired by God. That means, if the biblical writings in any way suggest there is more than one God, that writing is not God inspired writing.



The Evidence
God tells a man and a woman that they may not eat a certain fruit. They eat it anyway.
3:22Then the LORD God said, "See, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever.
"One of us"? If there's only one God, who could the "us" be referring to

But, things are far more complicated than an ambiguous reference to “US”.
Take, for instance, the First Commandment. 20:2I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; you shall have no other gods before me.
Note the wording carefully: "no other gods before me." The writer could have said, you shall have no other gods<period>--ended the sentence with the word "gods." He could have said "instead of me," but he didn't do that either. The passage acknowledges that there are other gods and implies that having other gods is all right, just so long as you keep YHWH first. This reflects a classic biblical henotheist perspective: that is to say, it assumes the existence of many gods and the primacy of one, as opposed to the existence of only one.

The one true God would never say such things. But a primitive human whose culture is evolving from henotheism to monotheism, would.

Begin looking and you find repeated flashes of henotheism. Here are a few.
Exodus 12:12.
On that same night I will pass through Egypt and strike down every firstborn—both men and animals—and I will bring judgment on all the gods of Egypt. I am the LORD.
Deuteronomy 6:14-15.
Do not follow other gods, any of the gods of the peoples who are all around you, because the LORD your God, who is present with you, is a jealous God.
Joshua 24:2, 14-15.
Long ago your ancestors -- Terah and his sons Abraham and Nahor -- lived beyond the Euphrates and served other gods. [...] Now therefore revere the LORD, and serve him in sincerity and in faithfulness; put away the gods that your ancestors served beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the LORD. Now if you are unwilling to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served in the region beyond the River or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD.
Judges 9:9.
The olive tree answered them, "Shall I stop producing my rich oil by which both gods and mortals are honored?"2
2 Samuel 7:23.
And who is like your people Israel—the one nation on earth that God went out to redeem as a people for himself, and to make a name for himself, and to perform great and awesome wonders by driving out nations and their gods from before your people, whom you redeemed from Egypt?
2 Chronicles 2:5.
The temple I am going to build will be great, because our God is greater than all other gods.
Psalm 82:1
God has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment.3
Psalm 86:8
There is none like you among the gods, O Lord, nor are there any works like yours.
Psalm 138:1
I give you thanks, O Lord, with my whole heart; before the gods I sing your praise.
Micah 4:5
All the nations may walk in the name of their gods; we will walk in the name of the LORD our God for ever and ever.
None of these passages seems to a) require the understanding that YHWH is the only god, and
b) in fact a few seem to speak quite clearly against it.

This is what I have collected.

Is it just me, Antonio, or do your posts lately have an added level of desperation to them? Your foundation is crumbling, you cannot find the loophole you so deseire to be there, and you grab onto anything to bring God's word into disrepute.

People are now well aware that you are not seeking truth but seeking approval while still in your lifestyle choice. You are wresttling with the scriptures to your own destruction, Antonio. Stop trying to hurt others as well. It seems that daily you get a new "revelation" that somehow proves that God cannot be God at all.

You are your God, Antonio, and you are simply trying to feel it ok to continue in your lifestyle that God has plainly said is an abomination...his words, not mine.

You talk much of love, but if you loved as you said, you would not be on here trying to hurt the faith of others. They have chosen their path to life. You have chosen yours. God has called us to peace. If you disagree with Christians and find they will not bend to your "I'm ok, you're ok" gospel, why spend precious time on here trying to influence others to your lies?

Proclaiming that there is no redemption strikes out at the very heart of what Christianity is, and attempts to make Jesus's amazing act of sacrifice a wasted act by a man who was deluded into thinking he was god. You are sad indeed.

One day, Antonio, your knee will bow to Him, but because of His grace, He gives you the opportunity to do it willingly and be free of the cold hands that grip your heart and soul and mind. The alternative is unspeakably terrible and I pray you break before you have to acknowledge Him as Lord and then be cast you out of His presence for your continued choice to rebel against His lordship in your life.

"And bring those who would not have me to reign over them and slay them before me."
Luke 19

This is not a game Antonio, where wit and intelligence scores points. You love the fact you can come back to all who withstand you with truth and apprear to score points for your intelligent replies and quick witted comments. God is not impressed, and neither are believers. He IS love, just as you think, but there is evil in the world Antonio, and its time is growing short. I pray you see that before it is too late.

[winsome]

Antonio,

You are reading too much into an English translation of the original text. I'm not going to go though your whole post, but take 20:2I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; you shall have no other gods before me.

Other translations say no other gods besides me. Your theory falls to the ground.

[NotFinishedYet]

Originally Posted by Brad

Wasn't pre-biblical society polytheistic?

Yes, the Jewish nation was formed out of the Caanite one which was polytheistic. They had a hard time setting all those other gods aside as evidenced throughout the OT.

Originally Posted by Brad

Whoever was writing the bible would be hard pressed not to refer to other gods. Isn't it the case that God was being presented as the one true God and all others were false? I don't think that He came along and filled some celestial void. Everybody would have believed in something.

Moses wrote Genesis as an opening exegesis in establishing a new theology based on monotheism. Statements such as "in the beginning" are used to establish superiority of the new Godhead. Same is true with the gospels in the NT: they are an explanation of writings (the original source writings such as "Q")setting up a new religion. hmmmm.... everyone believed in something? No non-believers? I'm not sure about that one. Do you have any evidence to a genesis of atheism? Curious, ya know?

Originally Posted by Brad

Atheists do it a lot...

Probably a darn good thing you don't use emoticons!

Dear windsome--The quotes I used are from the NRSV. I don't think, searching for a translation that agrees with you says much for authorship. Besides, the translation you quote, still refers to other "gods."

As for English translations, here's a Hebraic translation, Michael S. Heiser,observes from the Hebraic text,Psalm 82, "It is not difficult to demonstrate that the Hebrew Bible assumes and affirms the existence of other gods.. Verse one of that Psalm reads:
אֱלֹהִים נִצָּב בַּעֲדַת־אֵל בְּקֶֶרב אֱלֹהִים יִשְׁפֹּט׃
god stands in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he passes judgment.
The first אֱלֹהִים is obviously singular due to subject-verb agreement. The second אֱלֹהִים is obviously plural due to the preposition בְּקֶרֶב , since God cannot be said to be standing in the midst of a (singular)god or Himself. The Trinity is ruled out immediately because the gods over whom Yahweh presides are here being sentenced to die for their corrupt rule of people on the earth.Critical scholars look to Psalm 82 as either a vestige of polytheism overlooked by monotheistic redactors,or perhaps a deliberate rhetorical use of Israel’s polytheistic past to declare the new outlook of monotheism."

Dear Bruce--respectfully, your resort to personal attacks does nothing to undermine the point of the thread. Wouldn't you think the best support of your position would be to demonstrate my hypothesis and proof and false. But like most ad hominem fallacies, they are used when there is no credible rebuttal.

Brad--

Whoever was writing the bible would be hard pressed not to refer to other gods. Isn't it the case that God was being presented as the one true God and all others were false? I don't think that He came along and filled some celestial void. Everybody would have believed in something.And if you just add a couple of quote marks, then it changes each statement:All the nations may walk in the name of their "gods".You can just see the guy saying it rolling his eyes and making little quote marks in the air when he says "gods", the inference being 'so-called gods'.

............. and your point?????


---------------------------------------------------------------------
It was commonly observed that when the righteous stoned the wrongnous, some righteous could only heave pebbles. annon

[winsome]

Originally Posted by antonio

Dear windsome--The quotes I used are from the NRSV. I don't think, searching for a translation that agrees with you says much for authorship. Besides, the translation you quote, still refers to other "gods."

As for English translations, here's a Hebraic translation, Michael S. Heiser,observes from the Hebraic text,Psalm 82, "It is not difficult to demonstrate that the Hebrew Bible assumes and affirms the existence of other gods.. Verse one of that Psalm reads:
אֱלֹהִים נִצָּב בַּעֲדַת־אֵל בְּקֶֶרב אֱלֹהִים יִשְׁפֹּט׃
god stands in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he passes judgment.
The first אֱלֹהִים is obviously singular due to subject-verb agreement. The second אֱלֹהִים is obviously plural due to the preposition בְּקֶרֶב , since God cannot be said to be standing in the midst of a (singular)god or Himself. The Trinity is ruled out immediately because the gods over whom Yahweh presides are here being sentenced to die for their corrupt rule of people on the earth.Critical scholars look to Psalm 82 as either a vestige of polytheism overlooked by monotheistic redactors,or perhaps a deliberate rhetorical use of Israel’s polytheistic past to declare the new outlook of monotheism."

Didn't need to search - it's the translation I normally use.

But if want to wander down the strange path you seem to be following then so be it.

[Linsinbigler]

Originally Posted by BruceG

Is it just me, Antonio, or do your posts lately have an added level of desperation to them? Your foundation is crumbling, you cannot find the loophole you so deseire to be there, and you grab onto anything to bring God's word into disrepute.

People are now well aware that you are not seeking truth but seeking approval while still in your lifestyle choice. You are wresttling with the scriptures to your own destruction, Antonio. Stop trying to hurt others as well. It seems that daily you get a new "revelation" that somehow proves that God cannot be God at all.

You are your God, Antonio, and you are simply trying to feel it ok to continue in your lifestyle that God has plainly said is an abomination...his words, not mine.

You talk much of love, but if you loved as you said, you would not be on here trying to hurt the faith of others. They have chosen their path to life. You have chosen yours. God has called us to peace. If you disagree with Christians and find they will not bend to your "I'm ok, you're ok" gospel, why spend precious time on here trying to influence others to your lies?

Proclaiming that there is no redemption strikes out at the very heart of what Christianity is, and attempts to make Jesus's amazing act of sacrifice a wasted act by a man who was deluded into thinking he was god. You are sad indeed.

One day, Antonio, your knee will bow to Him, but because of His grace, He gives you the opportunity to do it willingly and be free of the cold hands that grip your heart and soul and mind. The alternative is unspeakably terrible and I pray you break before you have to acknowledge Him as Lord and then be cast you out of His presence for your continued choice to rebel against His lordship in your life.

"And bring those who would not have me to reign over them and slay them before me."
Luke 19

This is not a game Antonio, where wit and intelligence scores points. You love the fact you can come back to all who withstand you with truth and apprear to score points for your intelligent replies and quick witted comments. God is not impressed, and neither are believers. He IS love, just as you think, but there is evil in the world Antonio, and its time is growing short. I pray you see that before it is too late.

Bruce,

You are correct of course in what you say. However, Antonio is what is known as a "troll." No, this is not name calling, "troll" as in "troller," a person who "posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion" (Troll (Internet) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)
As you can see in this article, it refers to a person who is "trolling for suckers." They are not on the forum to benefit according to the purpose of the forum. Rather, they come on the forum to tear down the beliefs of those whom they consider to be 'suckers' in their beliefs, in this case, Christians. Basically, the trollers to this sight claim a vague 'belief' in God, even though they hate the Christian God, so that they can tear as many people away from Christian faith as possible. They hate religion, Christianity in particular, want to destroy it, and want to see how far they can get in their goal before they are booted off a site by pretending to be just a 'different kind of believer.' Many Christian websites do not tolerate trolling at all. Its up to y'all but my opinion is that our continued responses to a troller's nonsenese is aiding them in their efforts. Again, this particular troller is seeing how far he can get before the guardians stop him.