Hypothesis for a rainy day in Vancouver, BC:
Redemption is a construct of humans not God. God, being God, knew at our creation what our capacities and limits would be. He loved us, has always loved us and still loves us. He did not make life like a game of Pachinko. Instead of looking at our unity with each other and God, humans looked for ways to control other humans, to get away with hate, lack of mercy, lack of compassion and justice. These were good ways to control. Redemption was invented to cover our flaws. Anyone who wasn't redeemed like those in power, or were not pursuing redemption, or were impeding the redemption of those in power, was evil and should be eliminated. Enter, war, stakes, crosses, racks, fire, stones, theft of land, discrimination --How convenient.

Love not redemption was taught by Jesus. Unfortunately, Pauline writings muddied up the water, the point explains the tension in the Pauline writings.
This is how I see it--that we were originally blessed by God not originally found lacking and flawed. God doesn't make junk but we can certainly turn His creation into junk.

[Linsinbigler]

Originally Posted by antonio

Hypothesis for a rainy day in Vancouver, BC:
Redemption is a construct of humans not God. God, being God, knew at our creation what our capacities and limits would be. He loved us, has always loved us and still loves us. He did not make life like a game of Pachinko. Instead of looking at our unity with each other and God, humans looked for ways to control other humans, to get away with hate, lack of mercy, lack of compassion and justice. These were good ways to control. Redemption was invented to cover our flaws. Anyone who wasn't redeemed like those in power, or were not pursuing redemption, or were impeding the redemption of those in power, was evil and should be eliminated. Enter, war, stakes, crosses, racks, fire, stones, theft of land, discrimination --How convenient.

Love not redemption was taught by Jesus. Unfortunately, Pauline writings muddied up the water, the point explains the tension in the Pauline writings.
This is how I see it--that we were originally blessed by God not originally found lacking and flawed. God doesn't make junk but we can certainly turn His creation into junk.

Antonio, you may have already answered this in another post that I did not read but, do you consider yourself a Christian? If not, what do you consider yourself to be?

[NotFinishedYet]

Originally Posted by antonio

Hypothesis for a rainy day in Vancouver, BC:
Redemption is a construct of humans not God. God, being God, knew at our creation what our capacities and limits would be. He loved us, has always loved us and still loves us. He did not make life like a game of Pachinko. Instead of looking at our unity with each other and God, humans looked for ways to control other humans, to get away with hate, lack of mercy, lack of compassion and justice. These were good ways to control. Redemption was invented to cover our flaws. Anyone who wasn't redeemed like those in power, or were not pursuing redemption, or were impeding the redemption of those in power, was evil and should be eliminated. Enter, war, stakes, crosses, racks, fire, stones, theft of land, discrimination --How convenient.

Love not redemption was taught by Jesus. Unfortunately, Pauline writings muddied up the water, the point explains the tension in the Pauline writings.
This is how I see it--that we were originally blessed by God not originally found lacking and flawed. God doesn't make junk but we can certainly turn His creation into junk.

Okay, Antonio, I'll play. We'll set aside the Pauline writings. How do you see this teaching of Jesus:

John 3:17 (Young's Literal Translation)
For God did not send His Son to the world that he may judge the world, but that the world may be saved through him;

So we are not judging here, but saving..... what is the world being saved from? And what do you mean by "redemption"?

[Amadeus]

Have you not just tried to put a another slant on what the Bible says?

antonio: God, being God, knew at our creation what our capacities and limits would be. He loved us, has always loved us and still loves us.

The above words may be supported by scripture. So then why is it that this loving God made us in the way that He did?

antonio: God doesn't make junk but we can certainly turn His creation into junk.

Why didn't He make us so we could not turn His creation into junk?

What was Paul's problem? He was a smart well-educated fellow and at first he was a fanatic for the establishment. Then he was moved in the other direction.

You, my friend are a smart, well-educated fellow and on some things you are also a fanatic, such as equal rights, equal opportunity, justice, etc. Are those evil things? No! But... do all of them as man has established them always line up exactly with God's plan? That is the question isn't it?

Does God know better than Amadeus or antonio or Bruce or CC or any of us here what is the best way to do things? If He does, then did He provide us the means to find and understand that best way?

Where is redemption mentioned before the birth of Jesus in Bethlehem?

"The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth." Gen 48:16

"Wherefore say unto the children of Israel, I am the LORD, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will rid you out of their bondage, and I will redeem you with a stretched out arm, and with great judgments:" Exo 6:6

"Thou in thy mercy hast led forth the people which thou hast redeemed: thou hast guided them in thy strength unto thy holy habitation." Exo 15:13

"And if a sojourner or stranger wax rich by thee, and thy brother that dwelleth by him wax poor, and sell himself unto the stranger or sojourner by thee, or to the stock of the stranger's family:

After that he is sold he may be redeemed again; one of his brethren may redeem him:" Lev 25:47-48

"I prayed therefore unto the LORD, and said, O Lord GOD, destroy not thy people and thine inheritance, which thou hast redeemed through thy greatness, which thou hast brought forth out of Egypt with a mighty hand.

Remember thy servants, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; look not unto the stubbornness of this people, nor to their wickedness, nor to their sin:" Deut 9:26-27

"And what one nation in the earth is like thy people, even like Israel, whom God went to redeem for a people to himself, and to make him a name, and to do for you great things and terrible, for thy land, before thy people, which thou redeemedst to thee from Egypt, from the nations and their gods?" II Sam 7:23

"For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:

And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:" Job 19:25-26

"Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.

For he shall deliver the needy when he crieth; the poor also, and him that hath no helper.

He shall spare the poor and needy, and shall save the souls of the needy.

He shall redeem their soul from deceit and violence: and precious shall their blood be in his sight." Psalm 72:11-14

"And they remembered that God was their rock, and the high God their redeemer." Psalm 78:35

"Let the redeemed of the LORD say so, whom he hath redeemed from the hand of the enemy;

And gathered them out of the lands, from the east, and from the west, from the north, and from the south.

They wandered in the wilderness in a solitary way; they found no city to dwell in.

Hungry and thirsty, their soul fainted in them.

Then they cried unto the LORD in their trouble, and he delivered them out of their distresses.

And he led them forth by the right way, that they might go to a city of habitation." Psalm 107:2-7

"And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein.

No lion shall be there, nor any ravenous beast shall go up thereon, it shall not be found there; but the redeemed shall walk there:" Isa 35:8-9

"Therefore the redeemed of the LORD shall return, and come with singing unto Zion; and everlasting joy shall be upon their head: they shall obtain gladness and joy; and sorrow and mourning shall flee away." Isa 51:11

"For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called." Isa 54:5

"The spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;" Isa 61:1-2 [see Luke 4:18-19]

"I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes." Hosea 13:14

There were too many to list them all. I listed just a few to give you an idea. You are not only casting aside the epistles of Paul, but much of the Old Testament. Instead of describing a 'good' plan of you own, or of another man, see if God does have a plan described for us. I believe that He does, but it does not simply jump into you heart without any effort on your part.

Do you really love God? If you do then seek what it is that He has rather than what any man says that he has.

Dear NFY--you asked

John 3:17 (Young's Literal Translation)
For God did not send His Son to the world that he may judge the world, but that the world may be saved through him;

So we are not judging here, but saving..... what is the world being saved from? And what do you mean by "redemption"?

John 3:17 is one of the most comforting an affirming verses in the NT. Saying He did not come to judge, means there is nothing to forgive, nothing to condemn. God Loves us. He loves us so much that He sent His son to save us. What is he saving us from? From ourselves. God could have said. "I'm sending my son to save you from the consequences of my wrath." Wouldn't that be the ultimate of confusion. God would be saying , "I am filled with wrath for my people. I could forgive them but instead, I will send my Son who will die a horrible death to appease me with his pure sacrifice for the sins committed by my people. But I wont forgive my people because they will reject my son. So I will have others go to the other sheep and bring them into the flock.---oh, and since I and the Son are one, My son could also forgiven them but He has the wrath too, and He wanted to go down and be the perfect sacrifice so He could get over His wrath...etc, "

The reason He didn't say this is because the scenario is an outrageous contradiction. I mean it's outrageous to attribute to our Father in Heaven such an insane, crazy plan. He has no wrath for us. He only has love. That is confirmed by Him saying my plan is not to judge you but to save you. He says, "Save you from what? From yourselves. Save you from your your obsession with sin --it's like a dog chasing it's own tail. You keep sinning but you keep chasing after sin, too. Why? Because you found that by inventing sin you could control each other. Once you desired control, you had to give up on love. It's like Jesus is breaking up a fight on the school ground, Breaking up the fight is why He is there, not to judge the kids fighting, or punish them, but do save them from something worse. So--I'm repeating myself, sin isn't the point, forget sin and get to the point, start loving each other. Didn't you notice? I sent my son to tell you to forget sin and turn back to love. Didn't you notice? That is what Jesus was talking about-- LOVE."

If you don't want to "forget Paul" I can show you why Paul is saying the same thing I am saying. But lets deal with John 3:17 first.
love
antonio

Dear Rev L-- you asked,

do you consider yourself a Christian?

Why do you ask? Have I said something that is contrary to Jesus' teachings?
By the way, it is nice to hear from you.

[NotFinishedYet]

Originally Posted by antonio

John 3:17 is one of the most comforting an affirming verses in the NT. Saying He did not come to judge, means there is nothing to forgive, nothing to condemn.

I agree that this is a wonderful affirming verse. Where we disagree here is twofold. I take the part of He did not come to judge as an immediate statement: His earthly purpose was not to judge man. And secondly, that there's nothing to condemn. God alone will be our judge and that will be at the end of the millennium age. I do agree that we will not be "condemned" in the traditional manner that man teaches: endtime, rot in hell condemnation. I believe in judgment and reward/purification. If the basis of your thoughts here are the normative 'ransom theory' of salvation (Jesus paying debt to God or Satan to remove us as hostages), that has always been another teaching I never quite got. Who held us ransom: God or Satan? Who collected the ransom? What was the ransom for: freedom from Satan, freedom from sin.... No, our condemnation is our separation from harmony with God. You know it's interesting. If you look at the dictionary definition of "condemned" the first definition is to express strong disapproval of. It's not until lower down in definitions you get to court judgments, demonstrating guilt, and declaring unfit. So to me, what is to be "condemned" or "forgiven" (set aside) is our disharmony with God.

Originally Posted by Antonio

God Loves us.

Declare it, Brother!

Originally Posted by Antonio

He loves us so much that He sent His son to save us. What is he saving us from? From ourselves. God could have said. "I'm sending my son to save you from the consequences of my wrath." Wouldn't that be the ultimate of confusion. God would be saying , "I am filled with wrath for my people. I could forgive them but instead, I will send my Son who will die a horrible death to appease me with his pure sacrifice for the sins committed by my people. But I wont forgive my people because they will reject my son. So I will have others go to the other sheep and bring them into the flock.---oh, and since I and the Son are one, My son could also forgiven them but He has the wrath too, and He wanted to go down and be the perfect sacrifice so He could get over His wrath...etc, "

What I'm reading here is the thoughts that underscore the Ransom Theory: that God was sooooo offended by his creation's rebellion that He was beside Himself with anger and vengefulness that someone had to die. Christ being that someone, yet it still didn't take as Israel stood blind. Well, yeah, that kinda sums up how I've always heard the Ransom Theory taught. But it is a teaching of man. God teaches love as you point out. God teaches reconciliation. God teaches setting things right. God teaches that we can overcome ourselves to join back in harmony with Him through the power of the Spirit He has given us. Have you ever noticed that He gives us everything we need to join with Him? Our faith is a gift from Him, the comforter Spirit which makes us one with Him is from Him, Jesus' example of a holy life and forgiving death was from Him. Yet we try over and over to make it about us and our powers/will.

Originally Posted by Antonio

The reason He didn't say this is because the scenario is an outrageous contradiction. I mean it's outrageous to attribute to our Father in Heaven such an insane, crazy plan. He has no wrath for us. He only has love. That is confirmed by Him saying my plan is not to judge you but to save you. He says, "Save you from what? From yourselves. Save you from your your obsession with sin --it's like a dog chasing it's own tail. You keep sinning but you keep chasing after sin, too. Why? Because you found that by inventing sin you could control each other. Once you desired control, you had to give up on love. It's like Jesus is breaking up a fight on the school ground, Breaking up the fight is why He is there, not to judge the kids fighting, or punish them, but do save them from something worse. So--I'm repeating myself, sin isn't the point, forget sin and get to the point, start loving each other. Didn't you notice? I sent my son to tell you to forget sin and turn back to love. Didn't you notice? That is what Jesus was talking about-- LOVE."

I and my father are one. If you have seen me, you have seen my father. Jesus was love, God is love. But such love is often beyond human comprehension, Antonio. It is easier to build constructs around hate and vengefulness then to accept a purity of love that is so foreign to us. We understand hate, we understand wanting revenge, we understand condemning as to finding guilt and passing sentence. But to be accepted as imperfect and loved anyway with a depth of giving up the life of your child to demonstrate how deeply you love another..... we can not begin to grasp that.

Originally Posted by Antonio

If you don't want to "forget Paul" I can show you why Paul is saying the same thing I am saying. But lets deal with John 3:17 first.

Who needs Paul when we have John 3: 17?
love back at ya: Peggy

NFY--you wrote

Where we disagree here is twofold. I take the part of He did not come to judge as an immediate statement: His earthly purpose was not to judge man. And secondly, that there's nothing to condemn. God alone will be our judge and that will be at the end of the millennium age. I do agree that we will not be "condemned" in the traditional manner that man teaches: endtime, rot in hell condemnation. I believe in judgment and reward/purification. If the basis of your thoughts here are the normative 'ransom theory' of salvation (Jesus paying debt to God or Satan to remove us as hostages), that has always been another teaching I never quite got. Who held us ransom: God or Satan? Who collected the ransom? What was the ransom for: freedom from Satan, freedom from sin.... No, our condemnation is our separation from harmony with God.

I don't understand this so I hope you will elaborate
1. You say "His earthly purpose etc" and then "God alone will judge..."
It sounds as if you are saying Jesus wont judge because only God will judge us.---could you clear that up.
2. Ransom theory--that is the only theory I have ever heard. Is there another theory (besides mine) I'm confused about the full implication of what you are saying. Please understand, you have a much broader perspective and knowledge to draw on than me, so your references may not be clear to me.
bless you --for me this is a good dialog. I am grateful you are taking the time to help me through my thoughts.

[NotFinishedYet]

Originally Posted by antonio

NFY--you wrote

I don't understand this so I hope you will elaborate
1. You say "His earthly purpose etc" and then "God alone will judge..."
It sounds as if you are saying Jesus wont judge because only God will judge us.---could you clear that up.

Jesus' ministry was based on the pre-made decision that man had missed the mark in understanding and following God. So He did not come to judge us: God already found us lacking. Jesus' mission was to rebuke our ignorance and set us on the right path again. It was also His purpose to put into motion the final components needed that would lead to the end of God's redemptive plan. Jesus will have a heavenly role in judgment come the end times, but His earthly one did not include that. Remember how the demons screamed when they saw Him, asking if He came before the appointed time? They were asking that very question of if His earthly presence was one of judgment. At least that's my take on it.

And "God alone will judge". Well, again, I can only give you how I see things. I've heard teachings that Jesus will be our judge, but I see more Biblical evidence that He will be our mediator, kinda Defense Attorney if you will and God will be the judge. God has given Him the authority to be judge, but Christ has always pointed back to God as the authority. So I see more of them working together, Christ making recommendations and defenses to God, God making final decision. I point you back to your favorite NT author, Paul, on that one. Acts 17:31 says God has a fixed day in which He will judge us, Rms 1:28-2:11 talks about the "righteous judgment of God who will render to each according to his deeds", Rms 2:1-3 says the judgment of God is according to the truth and none will escape it, 2 Tim 4:1 indicates God will judge all the inhabitants of the world, and then you have Rev 20:11-15 which describes the final judgment before God's throne.

Originally Posted by Antonio

2. Ransom theory--that is the only theory I have ever heard. Is there another theory (besides mine) I'm confused about the full implication of what you are saying. Please understand, you have a much broader perspective and knowledge to draw on than me, so your references may not be clear to me.

No, Antonio, my knowledge or perspective is not broader, we are simply versed in different things because of the way our walks have unfolded. Like you I have struggled in the past with rectifying the teaching of a "ransom" to the loving nature I see in God. To my surprise, there's a variety of about 5 other old atonement theories beside the Ransom one, and a few newer ones that are being kicked around today. I'll try to give you a brief gist of the 6 I know of, but please understand, I am not well versed in them. Perhaps some others here on the forum can add to my understanding. But I'll give it a shot:

1.) Ransom Theory is also called the Classic atonement theory and was first proposed by Origen. Basically, it teaches that Adam's sin gave back to Satan dominion and ownership of all creation, including man. In order to buy man back, God made a business like deal with Satan to exchange the life of a deity (Jesus) for mankind. Satan thought he'd have ownership of Jesus but was "tricked" by God who resurrected Christ and restored both Jesus and mankind into a right state with Him.
2.) Satisfaction Theory is a modified Ransom theory. But it teaches that sin dishonors God, so a price had to be paid to restore God's honor. Christ offered himself to pay the price, but in this theory payment is made to God, not Satan.
3.) Moral Theory says that atonement is not won by making a payment. God's love overrules His insult and need for justice. Jesus' life and death were a moral example and inspiration for the wholeness we should seek in our relationship to God.
4.) Acceptance Theory. This will be the hardest for me to give an explanation of. My take on it is that it teaches that atonement is just an arbitrary choice of God, not based on payments or injury but just a random decision to exercise His will and provide atonement.
5.) Penal or Substitution Theory. This one you know. Adam's sin caused a "debt" which required payment. God's mercy replaces His wrath when Christ acts as a substitute for the debtor man.
6.) Christus Victory Theory is the same as the Ransom theory except it's not a business deal with a "payment" more of a "hostage rescue" situation.

I hope this is helpful to you as you balance out the issues of God's nature and redemptive atonement. Remember though, dear brother, these are all just man-made theories. Let your heart and His Spirit guide you into the truth.

bless you --for me this is a good dialog. I am grateful you are taking the time to help me through my thoughts.

Not a problem: it's fun to sort through with you. God is always working in us to show us more and more. He is good! Peace be with you. Peggy

[Josif59]

Originally Posted by NotFinishedYet

[color="Blue"]



No, Antonio, my knowledge or perspective is not broader, we are simply versed in different things because of the way our walks have unfolded. Like you I have struggled in the past with rectifying the teaching of a "ransom" to the loving nature I see in God. To my surprise, there's a variety of about 5 other old atonement theories beside the Ransom one, and a few newer ones that are being kicked around today. I'll try to give you a brief gist of the 6 I know of, but please understand, I am not well versed in them. Perhaps some others here on the forum can add to my understanding. But I'll give it a shot:

1.) Ransom Theory is also called the Classic atonement theory and was first proposed by Origen. Basically, it teaches that Adam's sin gave back to Satan dominion and ownership of all creation, including man. In order to buy man back, God made a business like deal with Satan to exchange the life of a deity (Jesus) for mankind. Satan thought he'd have ownership of Jesus but was "tricked" by God who resurrected Christ and restored both Jesus and mankind into a right state with Him.
2.) Satisfaction Theory is a modified Ransom theory. But it teaches that sin dishonors God, so a price had to be paid to restore God's honor. Christ offered himself to pay the price, but in this theory payment is made to God, not Satan.
3.) Moral Theory says that atonement is not won by making a payment. God's love overrules His insult and need for justice. Jesus' life and death were a moral example and inspiration for the wholeness we should seek in our relationship to God.
4.) Acceptance Theory. This will be the hardest for me to give an explanation of. My take on it is that it teaches that atonement is just an arbitrary choice of God, not based on payments or injury but just a random decision to exercise His will and provide atonement.
5.) Penal or Substitution Theory. This one you know. Adam's sin caused a "debt" which required payment. God's mercy replaces His wrath when Christ acts as a substitute for the debtor man.
6.) Christus Victory Theory is the same as the Ransom theory except it's not a business deal with a "payment" more of a "hostage rescue" situation.

I hope this is helpful to you as you balance out the issues of God's nature and redemptive atonement. Remember though, dear brother, these are all just man-made theories. Let your heart and His Spirit guide you into the truth.



Not a problem: it's fun to sort through with you. God is always working in us to show us more and more. He is good! Peace be with you. Peggy

You never mentioned which one, if any, you find acceptable. And perhaps Antonio may also cast a vote.