Matthew 5:17-20:
"Don't imagine that I have come to annul the Law or the Prophets. I have come not to annul but to fulfill. I swear to you, before the world disappears, not one iota, not one serif, will disappear from the Law, until it's all over. Whoever ignores one of the most trivial of these regulations, and teaches others to do so, will be called trivial in Heaven's domain. But whoever acts on <these regulations> and teaches <others to do so>, will be called great in Heaven's domain. Let me tell you: unless your religion goes beyond that of the scholars and the Pharisees, you won't set foot in Heaven's domain." [SV]

These could not be the words of Jesus if Jesus also said and declared:

• "all foods clean" (Mark 7:19b which is missing from the KJV but appears in the Greek and the NASB, or NRSV).

• that Moses gave a commandment because of the "hardness of their hearts" and not because it was the way God intended (teaching on divorce)

• "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath"?

• How could a Jesus who honored every tittle, iota or serif, be the same Jesus who hung out with prostitutes and tax collectors; who didn't fast; who rejected the scripture that said "an eye for an eye"? The Jesus preaching a changed heart and the mercy of God says "obey the law in trivial detail"?

• more importantly, if Jesus actually said what appears in Matthew 5:17-20, how is it possible that the disciples of Jesus, with the real Jesus still fresh in their memories (and many years before Matthew) had a meeting in which they decided that new Christian converts did NOT have to follow the detailed law of Moses? Acts 15:28-29 is inconceivable if Matthew 5:17-20 is authentic.

There are many scholars who set forth more scholarly reasons but I will avoid those if possible.
However, in a different thread, I will set forth that Jesus explicitly says the leaders of the religion of Judaism are thieves and robbers and are not his sheep.Jesus explicitly tosses out all law, rules , dogma , sacrifice and ritual for the only thing that joins us to God--keeping His commandment of Love.

Originally Posted by antonio

Matthew 5:17-20:
"Don't imagine that I have come to annul the Law or the Prophets. I have come not to annul but to fulfill. I swear to you, before the world disappears, not one iota, not one serif, will disappear from the Law, until it's all over. Whoever ignores one of the most trivial of these regulations, and teaches others to do so, will be called trivial in Heaven's domain. But whoever acts on <these regulations> and teaches <others to do so>, will be called great in Heaven's domain. Let me tell you: unless your religion goes beyond that of the scholars and the Pharisees, you won't set foot in Heaven's domain." [SV]

These could not be the words of Jesus if Jesus also said and declared:

• "all foods clean" (Mark 7:19b which is missing from the KJV but appears in the Greek and the NASB, or NRSV).

• that Moses gave a commandment because of the "hardness of their hearts" and not because it was the way God intended (teaching on divorce)

• "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath"?

• How could a Jesus who honored every tittle, iota or serif, be the same Jesus who hung out with prostitutes and tax collectors; who didn't fast; who rejected the scripture that said "an eye for an eye"? The Jesus preaching a changed heart and the mercy of God says "obey the law in trivial detail"?

• more importantly, if Jesus actually said what appears in Matthew 5:17-20, how is it possible that the disciples of Jesus, with the real Jesus still fresh in their memories (and many years before Matthew) had a meeting in which they decided that new Christian converts did NOT have to follow the detailed law of Moses? Acts 15:28-29 is inconceivable if Matthew 5:17-20 is authentic.

There are many scholars who set forth more scholarly reasons but I will avoid those if possible.
However, in a different thread, I will set forth that Jesus explicitly says the leaders of the religion of Judaism are thieves and robbers and are not his sheep.Jesus explicitly tosses out all law, rules , dogma , sacrifice and ritual for the only thing that joins us to God--keeping His commandment of Love.

Antonio, your darkness gets greater and greater. I fear you are on a slippery slope heading towards hell. You continue to attempt to re-forge the gospel according to Antonio and pick and choose what you like and what you do not so that you might continue in your lifestyle that is an affront to God. Your soul is in eternal danger and you are trading eons of seperation from a loving God who died to save you from your sins for a mess of pottage... gratification of your flesh for what? 10 more years?

I am not calling you a fool but your are certainly acting the part. Sin has hardened your heart in is desire for pleasure more than God and the end for you I fear there will be nothing but weeping and gnashing of teeth.

You know I love you, whether at this point you feel it or not. I have been longsuffering with you and tried to help open your eyes but I am now finally convinced that your choice has been made, that you are no longer seeking truth but seeking loopholes.

You may now be past help, I pray not, but I cannot let you walk your path of pleasure and attempt to intertwine it with God's love without withstanding you. It is a sad day indeed. I will resist your attempts to influence others that are searching for truth and in my mind, you should truthfully be banned, but it is not my decision to make.

You attempt to subvert the faith of others to join your new gospel of "love" that is really just the old "loving pleasure more than loving God." May God have mercy on your soul.

I would take time to refute what you say in your attempt for "dialogue" to find God but the truth is you have made your choice already as to which God you want to serve and it is evident, I think, to all. You are not seeking truth. Your lifestyle is your truth and now your gospel must be adapted to include it. Sadly, it is a lie you have deceived yourself with. I will from here on out withstand your efforts to deceive others and warn responders to your posts as to your intentions. I am truly sorry it has come down to this. I fear, truly fear, your soul is anathema. I am truly praying it is not so.

Dear Bruce--look around you-chaos, squabbling, backbiting, slander, gossip,rules,laws and dogmas, many contradicting each other. So many finding justification for not loving their fellow human, even their neighbors, as it meets their needs. Everyone finding "a season" to hate, to kill, to enslave, to discriminate, to rob, to torture even though NOT ONCE is any such seasons acknowledged by Jesus.
Look around at the billions of words uttered and written, thousands of different denominations, since the beginning until today, many of those denominations engaged in bloody deeds and bloody wars, hundreds of different bibles printed up and fought over, millions of eyes pouring over the pages, memorizing, obsessing on the tablet but all the while missing what's written on the heart. The Command of God that can be written on a finger nail, and only requires thirteen letters, L.O.V.E.A.L.L.H.U.M.A.N.S.
No thanks, Bruce, I want no part of any of that. I leave it all to you. Do you know that every bible could be burned, every religious word written erased, all the incessant quibbling about whether there is three in one or only one etc, etc,ended, and we could still spend all our effort on those thirteen letters and be baffled at the enormity of the task. That task is told by Jesus in the story of specks and logs in eyes. That's enough to keep me busy for a lifetime.

[/b]

[DrFrank]

I'm extremely impressed with the eloquence and sincerity of the two authors above.However,denying the authenticity of the Bible's quotations of Jesus' teachings is an unmistakable act of blasphemy.It's very reassuring to read descriptions of Jesus' love but the truth is that the reality of Hell where He will cast those He rejects,was one of His most frequent teaching topics.

Fortunately I have an excellent Bible commentary which clears up the confusion Antonio has created here.In verse 17 the reference to prophets refers to their predictions.The word "fulfill" refers to the fact that Jesus lived a perfectly holy life and then was murdered as predicted in the Old Testament.Jesus fulfilled the Mosaic law through His morally pure life,death and resurrection making it unnecessary for His followers to do so.

None of Jesus' teachings remove the requirement that Christians obey the Ten Commandments although He did modify the Jewish interpretation of some of them slightly, specifically the strict laws on Sabbath day activities.As Antonio states,He also did away completely with the Old Testament teaching of "an eye for an eye",but that is not referenced in the verses quoted and of course is not part of the Ten commandments.

Finally after reading Bruce's statement above I have concluded that he is not a human but instead is an angel sent to warn all of us.I take his threats very seriously.I firmly believe that he speaks for God.

THE TEN COMMANDMENTS ARE TO BE OBEYED,NOT MOCKED AND CONDEMNED AS IRRELEVANT.

Antonio,

In your first post were you by chance mixing together and confusing the levitical laws (small case l/plural) that were of the time of John the Baptist, and thee Law (large case L/singular)/Commandments that are in effect til the end of this old heaven and earth? I realize the way things are written up/translated it is hard to distinguish the difference at times. But when you stand back and look at the whole picture you can clearly see the differences.

Originally Posted by antonio

Dear Bruce--look around you-chaos, squabbling, backbiting, slander, gossip,rules,laws and dogmas, many contradicting each other. So many finding justification for not loving their fellow human, even their neighbors, as it meets their needs. Everyone finding "a season" to hate, to kill, to enslave, to discriminate, to rob, to torture even though NOT ONCE is any such seasons acknowledged by Jesus.
Look around at the billions of words uttered and written, thousands of different denominations, since the beginning until today, many of those denominations engaged in bloody deeds and bloody wars, hundreds of different bibles printed up and fought over, millions of eyes pouring over the pages, memorizing, obsessing on the tablet but all the while missing what's written on the heart. The Command of God that can be written on a finger nail, and only requires thirteen letters, L.O.V.E.A.L.L.H.U.M.A.N.S.
No thanks, Bruce, I want no part of any of that. I leave it all to you. Do you know that every bible could be burned, every religious word written erased, all the incessant quibbling about whether there is three in one or only one etc, etc,ended, and we could still spend all our effort on those thirteen letters and be baffled at the enormity of the task. That task is told by Jesus in the story of specks and logs in eyes. That's enough to keep me busy for a lifetime.

[/b]

Antonio, I understand what you are saying, but you have chosen to throw out the baby with the bathwater. As the word says Let every man be a liar, God is still true. His word stands even if NO ONE lives it in its fullness. But there is a remnant and the remnant will grow is the virgins begin to wake. InHisName said something in his last post that I agreed with wholeheartedly. Love is a nice goal, a great "standard", but in truth, most have no real concept of what love is until they experience the full depths of being loved freely by God. it is truly life changing. I will continue iun prayer for you.

Dear Frank--("and you call yourself a doctor!"*)
Ah, the scary words you Judges have to use. Apostasy, Blasphemy, Heresy. It must be hard for you to keep them straight with all the judging you have to do.
Blasphemy : [from Greek; blas- (to curse, bring harm, or treat with contempt) + -pheme (speech)] Speaking about God with contempt, hatred or disdain;
Heresy--an opinion that is contrary to the opinion of those in power.
I think you meant to scream, "Heretic!. Heretic!"

You and the Angel never fail to go Jete' ing into every discussion with your steel toe, muddy, oversized clodhoppers. Allow me to inform you of what Jesus and Paul said. And, they said it very explicitly and not just once, but over and over. (It's now becoming clear to me why they felt it was necessary to repeat it so many times.)

For the whole law is fulfilled in one word, “You shall love your
neighbor as yourself.” (Galatians 5:14 RSV)
And who is your neighbor? Everyone is your neighbor. This is shown in the Parable Of The Good Samaritan (Luke 10:25-37, shown below). Therefore, “Love your neighbor as yourself” really means “Love all people as yourself,” because everyone is our neighbor.
God counts our love for others as if it were love for Himself. So when we love others, we are loving Him at the same time. This is shown in the Parable Of The Sheep And The Goats (Matthew 25:31-46,
If any one says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen. (1 John 4:20 RSV)

The Ten Commandments? Aren’t we supposed to obey them? Yes, but The Ten Commandments are only an approximation of what God wants from us. The Pharisees obeyed all of the Ten Commandments, yet God was very displeased with them because they did not have love. The exact thing God wants from us is that we should love our neighbor as we love ourselves. Everything else depends on this. He will forgive us of our offenses against Him (Matthew 5:14-15). Love makes everything holy, since God is love (1 John 4:8, 4:16). So all of God’s requirements for mankind boil down to this one command: “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.” If you truly do this one thing only, it is enough. It then doesn’t matter if you fall short on some of the dozens of others. But if you do not do this, all of the others together are not enough. This is the big one, more important than all the others combined.
If you really fulfil the royal law, according to the scripture,
You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well.
(James 2:8 RSV)
First Corinthians 13 emphasizes the primacy of love, even over faith itself.
1 Corinthians 13 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not love, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all
mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I
could remove mountains, and have not love, I am nothing.
13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I
give my body to be burned, and have not love, it profits me nothing.
13:4 Love suffers long, and is kind; love envies not; love vaunts not
itself, is not puffed up, ,,,,,,,,,,,,,, 13:13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest
of these is love.

Other Scriptures also tell us that love for others is the most important thing.
“Love For Others Fulfills The Law”

Galatians 5:14 (RSV)
For the whole law is fulfilled in one word, “You shall love your
neighbor as yourself.”
Romans 13:8 (RSV)
Owe no one anything, except to love one another; for he who loves
his neighbor has fulfilled the law.

Romans 13:9 (RSV)
The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not
kill, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other
commandment, are summed up in this sentence, “You shall love your
neighbor as yourself.”
Romans 13:10 (RSV)
Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling
of the law.
James 2:8 (RSV)
If you really fulfil the royal law, according to the scripture,
“You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well.
Proverbs 10:12 (RSV)
Hatred stirs up strife, but love covers all offenses.
1 Peter 4:8 (RSV)
Above all hold unfailing your love for one another, since love
covers a multitude of sins.
You see. Nothing incorporates Love. Love, like God, incorporates everything.

Calling me a blasphemer would have gotten me stoned back when the Law was the law. Back then, those with your perspective even tried to stone Jesus for the very words I'm repeating here. Strange how things don't really change very much. I welcome hate from people like you. It means I am on the right path.God is great!

*This is an old Seinfeld line.

Originally Posted by DrFrank

I'm extremely impressed with the eloquence and sincerity of the two authors above.However,denying the authenticity of the Bible's quotations of Jesus' teachings is an unmistakable act of blasphemy.It's very reassuring to read descriptions of Jesus' love but the truth is that the reality of Hell where He will cast those He rejects,was one of His most frequent teaching topics.

Fortunately I have an excellent Bible commentary which clears up the confusion Antonio has created here.In verse 17 the reference to prophets refers to their predictions.The word "fulfill" refers to the fact that Jesus lived a perfectly holy life and then was murdered as predicted in the Old Testament.Jesus fulfilled the Mosaic law through His morally pure life,death and resurrection making it unnecessary for His followers to do so.

None of Jesus' teachings remove the requirement that Christians obey the Ten Commandments although He did modify the Jewish interpretation of some of them slightly, specifically the strict laws on Sabbath day activities.As Antonio states,He also did away completely with the Old Testament teaching of "an eye for an eye",but that is not referenced in the verses quoted and of course is not part of the Ten commandments.

Finally after reading Bruce's statement above I have concluded that he is not a human but instead is an angel sent to warn all of us.I take his threats very seriously.I firmly believe that he speaks for God.

THE TEN COMMANDMENTS ARE TO BE OBEYED,NOT MOCKED AND CONDEMNED AS IRRELEVANT.

Dr Frank, I so appreciate your kind comments but thank God my wife is here to bring my inflated head back to earth and to remind me of my frailties and the fact I do not take out the trash as I should.

Now, with that said, I want to tackle the statement you made and make a BIG caveat to it. Not very polite to critique someone who just compared you to an angel, is it?

You said the 10 commandments were still to be obeyed. I disagree. Although the end result of our abiding in Christ in the new man He has by his grace provide each of us might be keeping the 10 commandments, it will not happen by direct efforts on our part to do so, no matter how hard we try. It will happen as a byproduct of walking in His love and abiding in Him. It is the only way for a man or woman seeking to be truly obedient in the spirit that God desires our obedience done, done by a pure heart with pure motives. We can obey many of the commandments externally, but if we walk in self effort to perform them rather than by the faith of Christ that abides in us, even our obedience will bring God no pleasure and we will eventually either fail in disillusionment or become modern day pharisees.

The minute we turn to rules, regulations, etc. instead of looking to Jesus, we are like Peter walking on the water and then getting his eyes on the waves rather than on the master. We are sunk.

The good news is we are freed from the law when we come to Christ, becaus ethe law has done its job. It has convinced us of our desperate need for a miracle to have a truly obedient nature. The schoolmaster has succeeded. We are freed from the law. Its purpose was to make us guilty, that is all. Although it does give us a rough "feel" for God's heart, it is not a clear view. For instance, one of the commandments is to keep the sabbath holy. Is that for us today? No. How do I know? Because Paul addressed that issue as it was dividing believers into camps. Paul said this in essence. Some of you think it is important to worship on Sundays, some on Saturdays, and some esteem all days the same. Let each do what is purposed in in their own heart. He could not say that if we were still lifting up the 10 commandments as a requirement.

In another case, is it important to honor your father and mother? Of course. But then again, many Christians had to be kicked out of their own homes and leave father and mother permanently as their cost for following Christ and choosing to honor Christ above all.

Keeping the law externally as the pharisees did has ZERO value in making us holy. It is an attempt to wash our "outer cup". That is why the pharisees were furious with Jesus. He did not accept their actions as Holy. Holiness is a gift from God received by the obedience that springs froth from us abiding in God and His word abiding in us. God dwells in our hearts by faith and as we stare into the perfect law of liberty, not the law of commandments, we are changed into His image. We walk on water like Peter did.

Under the old covenant, it demanded holiness but could not provide us the power to obey. It was the hard taskmaster, reaping where it did not sow. It demands a pure heart and perfect obedience but gives us no power to obey.

But under the new covenant, the covenant of promise, we are told that God will CAUSE us to obey as we yield ourselves into the hand of the potter. Read Ezekiel 36 for a first hand detailed assessment from God's own mouth as to what He expected the new covenant to do. At the end, he says this:

"I shall yet be inquired of by the House of Israel to do it for them."

The difference between the two covenants is life and death. We are told to not go back under weak and beggarly elements of the law and even a small amount of the law will eventually leaven the whole lump. Grace. Faith. that is our path. God does not demand where He does not empower. Andrew Murray said it this way:

"God is willing to take full responsibilty for a life fully yielded to Him in faith."

If we go back to do's and don'ts and get our eyes off our master, the law, holy as it was, will cause death in us, not life. We are freed from rules to measure ourselves in Christ's holiness. We are now measured by faith in His abilities in us to bring us into obedience by changing us from the inside out. The law works from the outside in.

There is a wonderful video that illustrates perfectly what I am talking about. It is about a Christian man named **** Hoyt and his son. If you really want to get a good "picture" of the new covenant, and our relationahip as sons of God to the Father, watch this video. It will melt you as you fully understand how far we can get with God's help in us and how far we could have gotten without His help. Let me know what you think.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sb_tEOkcfds

Ok, gotta run. The trash needs taking out. Dr. Frank I pray I have not offended you in any way. The new covenant is far more wonderful than any of us ever imagined. God bless you all.

*One Note to those who might think I am saying obedience is not needed. It is still needed that we obey the spirit inside us, but that obedience is natural and easy walking in the changed nature of the new man.

[kimberlee]

Originally Posted by antonio

These could not be the words of Jesus if Jesus also said and declared.....

Either they are not the words of Jesus (and the whole Bible is a lie if one part of it is) or you have miscontrued the meaning of His words.

I'm going to bank on the latter, brother.

Originally Posted by antonio

.......How could a Jesus who honored every tittle, iota or serif, be the same Jesus who hung out with prostitutes and tax collectors; who didn't fast; who rejected the scripture that said "an eye for an eye"? The Jesus preaching a changed heart and the mercy of God says "obey the law in trivial detail"?

This interpretation of what Jesus said is incorrect. And you have made some false statements here. That is why you are making the scriptures contradict themselves.

The Greek word for "fulfil" is πληρόω (pleroo). It literally means to "consummate, complete, or carry through to the end."

What was the purpose of the Law? It was a holy standard that had to be met for God's people to "be ye holy as I am holy" as Leviticus says. Well, God's people couldn't meet it in perfect obedience. God's people could never fulfil it.

But Jesus could and did. He fulfilled what we could not. He consummated the law, completed it, and carried to through to the end. The Law's purpose was met in the holy obedience of Jesus Christ to the Father.

He fulfilled it.

When He said that not one iota of the law would pass until it be fulfilled, He went on to explain the iotas or the intimacies of the Law. He discussed the following subjects:

• murder and anger, based on the sixth commandment (5:21-26)
• adultery, the seventh commandment (5:27-30)
• divorce, from Deuteronomy 24:1 (5:31-32)
• swearing and oaths, summarizing teaching from such scriptures as Leviticus 19:12 and Numbers 30:2 (5:33-37)
• legal rights, quoted from Exodus 21:24-25, Leviticus 24:20, and Deuteronomy 19:21 (5:38-42)
• and the principle of loving one’s neighbor, from Leviticus 19:18 (5:43-47)

Jesus was NOT saying that we had to obey the legalistic and superficial interpretation of God's Law as the Pharisees and scribes. He was saying that we are to obey the spirit of the law.

God's law and holy standard never changes. We are made in His image and to be holy as He is holy, there must be a plumbline or a standard that is met.

Jesus met it or fulfilled it. And He showed us how to live it properly. He should us how to complete in our lives.....by obeying it NOT in the flesh, but by the spirit.

The people of the Old Testament lived under a legal document called the Law. Christians of the New Testament live under the Law that is not a binding document, but is written on our hearts as said in Jeremiah. Christians are to live under the Law of Christ. (John 13:33-35)

Jesus did hang out with publicans and prostitutes. You are right about that.

But you are wrong about Him not fasting. He fasted for 40 in the wilderness before He was tempted by the devil.

And you are wrong about Him rejecting scripture. You said, "he rejected the scripture that said 'an eye for an eye'" That's not what He said. He said, "You have heard it said, 'an eye for an eye and a tooth for tooth.'" That's what was being taught to the people, but that isn't what the scripture says. Jesus knew that they were being taught incorrectly.

This is what it says:

Leviticus 24
19And if a man cause a blemish in his neighbour; as he hath done, so shall it be done to him;

20Breach for breach, eye for eye, tooth for tooth: as he hath caused a blemish in a man, so shall it be done to him again.

21And he that killeth a beast, he shall restore it: and he that killeth a man, he shall be put to death

This was God's standard for legal compensation. Not revenge or retribution. This was to protect people from vigilanties and revenge seekers. But the people had twisted it's meaning all around.

Jesus Christ did not reject any scriptures.

Originally Posted by antonio

Acts 15:28-29 is inconceivable if Matthew 5:17-20 is authentic.

God's word does not contradict itself. Matthew 5:17-20 is authentic. I just explained that.

And Acts 15:28-29 is also authentic. You have to read the entirety of chapter 15 to understand. These two passages are not talking about the same thing.

There were some Pharisees who became saved and were new Christians. Because they were Pharisees, it was hard to let go of the notion of circumcision being what made you righteous. And they wanted men to be circumcized before they could be saved. They, in error, were placing the binding of the law above the blood of Jesus Christ.

Peter said not to tempt God and place a burdensome yoke around the necks of the people and require them to do something that even their ancestors could not do - keep and fulfil the law. This passage in Acts is referring to not keeping the legalist and binding document. The passage in Matthew is referring to keeping the intimacy and spirit of the law which is found in the spirit of Christ and not in the flesh. (Romans 8)

Originally Posted by antonio

Jesus explicitly tosses out all law.....

Jesus Christ did no such thing.

In Matthew 22, He stated that the two most important laws were to love the LORD your God with all you are and to love your neighbor as yourself and that ALL of the law AND the prophets hang on these things.

If we love God and our neighbors, then we won't murder or lie or abuse the day of rest or rebel against our parents or commit fornication and adultry.

If we love God, then the we accept the sacrifice of Jesus Christ which overrides the legalities, but not the essense or spirit of, ceremonial law. A pleasing aroma still reaches God's nostrils, just not from a dead goat or bull, but from the obedience of Jesus Christ and our following His lead.

If we love our neighbors then we will still give away a portion of our goods to the poor.

Jesus Christ fulfilled the Law by completing it's purpose by his perfect obedience.

He NEVER dismissed God's holy standard nor rejected it nor contradicted it. He brought it to fruition and that holy standard is now written in our hearts and we follow the law of Christ as He made examples of in the Sermon on the Mount.

Did Jesus ever say that the purpose for which He came was to fulfill the law? And, I would appreciate the one(or more) place where He explicitly says this. If your going to interpret, I would prefer to do my own interpretations.