How in the heck do I obey?

Guys, there has been a lot of talk lately about the need for holiness and obedience and a lot of people are seeing that the church is in a real mess, all of it. As a whole, we are worldly, lukewarm, defeated, religious, but NOT “free indeed”. But much confusion exists as to the HOW of becoming holy, how to truly obey. Most say we just need to repent and DO IT, but sadly this is just not true. It will not work.

Modern day Christianity, and I mean ALL denominations, have eroded into what I call the gospel according to Nike- Just Do It! The burden, and I do mean burden, is on our shoulders to clean up our acts, and whether we believe we are doing it or not, we are running back under the covering of the law, either blatantly or in theory, but the effect is the same….death. The law’s strength is self-effort, self-control and trust in ourselves that we can become holy simply by making right choices, choosing to obey, trying harder. It is a lie.

Listen, I believe the law is holy and good, and yet in reality, it is powerless to change us. It attempts to do what the Pharisees did, to clean their cup from the outside in. But holiness cannot come that way. God must work on us from the inside out and cleanse our hearts and minds, make us new and walk the walk IN us.

Listen, guys, the purpose of the Law was NEVER to change us, or guide us as to how to live. It was sent to tell us we must DIE in order to experience true life. It screams out at us that we are guilty, old men with old natures and corrupt hearts, fleshes that refuse to be subject to the wishes of our God. It was given to us to break us of our self-confidence, to humble us at God’s feet and to show us we need a savior! It was to make us cry out for mercy, for a new heart, for a miracle to get our flesh out of the way so we can truly worship God and walk pleasing to Him.

But what do we find instead? We find the Law back in our beliefs as a cornerstone of our faith! WHAT??? The very thing Paul said ministered death and condemnation??? The results are predictable. Most Christians now believe it is really impossible to walk perfect before God, where sin is a dead issue, where our flesh has been crucified, where we live for God fully all day, every day. Instead we believe we are “only human” and that “Christians aren’t perfect, just forgiven”. Garbage! Where is THAT in our wonderful gospel??? Do you not see how much unbelief in God there is in our testimony?

We have not let God reign over us and instead chosen the Law as an “idiot's guide to" manual as to how to please God and walk like a Christian. We want rules and regulations so we can measure where we are, and then try to show our thankfulness and gratitude to Jesus for all He has done for us by our obedience to His holy commandments. There is only one problem.....

We can't obey!

What??? I can hear the tearing of garments as I type. But it is true, because God tells us:

“By the deeds of the law shall NO flesh be justified in His sight.”

Why is this? Because the law is a tough taskmaster. Do you not understand what it demands???

The law demands perfection, yet gives you NOTHING with which to accomplish it! It is the hard taskmaster who reaps where he does not sow.

First, it demands PERFECT adherence, with NO slips. If we slip in one
area? The law says that we are guilty of all. Why? There is either
perfect or tainted, and even a little tainting is...well, not perfect!

Secondly, our obedience must be done with a pure heart, for God said:

"Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God."

Listen, all you who think you are pleasing God by your outer obedience. You are stumbling over the same stumbling stone that the Pharisees did. The Pharisees prided themselves on their diligence in searching out the law and keepings every single one of its precepts, down to tithing mint grown in their gardens. They kept the Law, and Jesus tells us that unless our righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the law and the Pharisees, we will in no ways see the kingdom of God! God requires clean INSIDES, inner thoughts, inner motives, not just outer obedience! What spiritual exercise can you do to stop thinking bad thoughts or judging, or thinking bad of another? There is none!

Jesus condemned the Pharisees as adulterers just for just lusting! Are we to believe that now, somehow, it is ok for us if we do the same thing because we have the blood to cover us? Lord, help us if our blindness has gotten that huge.

So how in the heck DO we change?

Ahhhh, now the good news! What is impossible to man is possible with God. We have so limited God in our unbelief that we have lost sight of the basics of our faith…which is FAITH!

God has told us that:

“We have been given exceeding great and precious promises, that by these, we might be partakers of the divine nature.”

And what are these promises, promises that tell us we can partake of God’s holy nature and be like Him?

How about:

“I can do all things thru Christ who strengthens me”?

Ok, can you? Have you found that to be your experience? Do you believe these words? Sadly, we both know the answer. Why? Because we have not done it by faith and rather have tried to do it thru the works of the law and our own effort, establishing our own righteousness.

How about another?

“For it is God working in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure”

The law made took care of the ”to will” part… (well, not exactly willingly, but hey, Heaven is on the line so I will go ahead and try to not lust). But there it leaves us, dangling, and we find no empowerment, no way to actually do it.

But thank God, that is NOT Christianity! For in the new covenant, God also says He will cause us to do it! Praise God!

Not convinced? Look back in Ezekiel. Here is where God Himself is speaking and telling us about His coming new covenant and what His intentions were for it to do in our lives….

“…and I will put my spirit within you and CAUSE you to walk in my statutes and you SHALL keep my judgments and do them.”
-Ezek 36:27

Glory to God! Do you now see??? God not only tells us what He wants from us…holiness….pure hearts…. obedient natures….love. He then empowers us to do it! This, guys, is the gospel of Christ, not self effort.

Want to know how God finished off His words about the new covenant?

“I shall yet be enquired of by the House of Israel to do it for them.”
-Ezek.36:37

Your God is willing. Your God is able. He has been waiting for you to come to the end of yourself and see how eak you really are, so that you can finally see how strong He is. I pray you leave dead religion behind and launch out and believe Him. He will not fail you.

Bruce, as I see it, you are preaching to a group that exists only in your fantasy.
Your Fantasy:there are a bunch of Christians out there who are Trying but they just don't understand how to go about it.
The Reality: the Christians out there are not trying. They are in denial, they know full well what Jesus commanded, that He commanded us to love God and all humans-that includes our enemies, enemies include those that hate us , want to kill and do kill us. Love of fellow humans means as He said in Matt 45, taking action to benefit humans in need, whether they are in prison, gutters, "retirement homes", hospitals or sick and dying, hungry, thirsty and naked. Yet on this very site, hate and painful remarks are spewed out by the minute, the MATT45 Hordes are ignored, war, killing and torture is justified--we are like sunning frogs, eyes slowly blinking but doing relatively little, luxuriating in our comfort, watching the horror go by.
We don't need a new idea, or a cleaver approach, or "meaningfu" methods, or to rise up against the evil ones or the immoral--all we need is to follow the less than one hundred words of Jesus Christ.

Originally Posted by antonio

Bruce, as I see it, you are preaching to a group that exists only in your fantasy.
Your Fantasy:there are a bunch of Christians out there who are Trying but they just don't understand how to go about it.
The Reality: the Christians out there are not trying. They are in denial, they know full well what Jesus commanded, that He commanded us to love God and all humans-that includes our enemies, enemies include those that hate us , want to kill and do kill us. Love of fellow humans means as He said in Matt 45, taking action to benefit humans in need, whether they are in prison, gutters, "retirement homes", hospitals or sick and dying, hungry, thirsty and naked. Yet on this very site, hate and painful remarks are spewed out by the minute, the MATT45 Hordes are ignored, war, killing and torture is justified--we are like sunning frogs, eyes slowly blinking but doing relatively little, luxuriating in our comfort, watching the horror go by.
We don't need a new idea, or a cleaver approach, or "meaningfu" methods, or to rise up against the evil ones or the immoral--all we need is to follow the less than one hundred words of Jesus Christ.

Well, Antonio, I can understand how you might think that, and if we walk by sight and not by faith, it certainly does appear that way. Yet, if you happened on the 10 virgins, all snuggled in blankets and snoozing away before the cry went forth that it was time for the wedding feast, frankly, you would want to cast them all out into the street. Yet, five of the ten were real Christians, whose destiny was Heaven, and what a mistake it would be to cast them off prematurely.

On the night in the garden, when Jesus was praying, when He had finished His night of anguished prayer and sweat great drops of blood, He returned back to the campfire, to his chosen, His faithful, His men of God that He had selected to run things after He was killed. And what did He find? All the disciples fast asleep, oblivious to the fact that the Son of the living God, their messiah, their friend, was going to die the next day. After all, it had been an exhaustibng day rounding up the donkey all the palm branches and all! What shall we do with them? Cast them into hellfire? Choose 12 new ones? Yet these same men, these "bafoons", all lbecame true aposltes and led the church that tuened the entire world on its ear in ONE generation, and then each, in turn, stared a violent death in the face down the line (ok, John got off light, he only had to be boiled in oil and exiled), and will sit on 12 thrones in heaven, judging with Christ.

Appearances can be deceiving, Antonio. God has promised that there will always be a remnant who have not bowed the knee to Baal. Have the waters been muddied by "religious" pastors and church leaders who have fed themselves rather than their sheep and sadly, let the flock be taken captive by the wolves? Unfortunatly, yes. Has the faith of multitudes grown cold in the long wait for our masters return? Yup. But many of these same people, resisting the voice of God today, will be at the forefront of the final battle for our Lord's kingdom one day in the near future, and help usher in the return of the God of the Universe to reclaim HIS planet.

Outwardly? Shoot, anyone would be discouraged. But looking through the eyes of faith ? It is like having spiritual night vision goggles on. You say I am living in a fantasy world. But I know my God. I know what is coming. I know what the church will accomplish in the last days, and Antonio, it is going to be a sight to behold.

[winsome]

Very good question Bruce.


Interesting you should talk about obedience and then mention the agony in the garden. I heard a talk a couple of weeks ago and the speaker referred to Luke 21:41-43

After withdrawing about a stone’s throw from them and kneeling, he prayed saying, “Father, if you are willing, take this cup away from me; still, not my will but yours be done.” (And to strengthen him an angel from heaven appeared to him)

He said Jesus came to earth to show us perfect obedience. And in this incident he really demonstrates it. Jesus is in agony knowing what is coming and asks the Father is there is any other way. But he submits himself totally to the Father’s will. Then after he has made that submission the Father sent an angel to strengthen him.

Easy to say but not so easy to do (for us I mean).

But we say it every time we say the Our Father.

Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven, presumably means starting with me, not the other fellow.

Jesus said, "If ye love me, keep my commandments." In other words, we show our love for Christ by obeying him. I can obey. I can also not obey. It is my choice. One way or the other, though, it is through Christ's grace, secured for me by the sacrifice of his blood and life, that reconciles me to God. My choice to obey makes it effectual for me. My choice to disobey makes it ineffective, and delivers me to "him whom I have listed to obey." Why make it more complicated than that?

Interesting you should talk about obedience and then mention the agony in the garden. I heard a talk a couple of weeks ago and the speaker referred to Luke 21:41-43

After withdrawing about a stone’s throw from them and kneeling, he prayed saying, “Father, if you are willing, take this cup away from me; still, not my will but yours be done.” (And to strengthen him an angel from heaven appeared to him)

He said Jesus came to earth to show us perfect obedience. And in this incident he really demonstrates it. Jesus is in agony knowing what is coming and asks the Father is there is any other way. But he submits himself totally to the Father’s will. Then after he has made that submission the Father sent an angel to strengthen him.

I suggest you read Mark for the first and more accurate encapsulation of the story. Luke relied on Mark but obviously had a different insight.
One should consider, and I have asked this question repeatedly, Since the Apostles were all a little loaded on wine and asleep, how did anyone know what Jesus said, suffered or experienced in the garden.
Some how I don't see Jesus ever revealing what He'd just gone through and particularly in those moments before the soldiers arrived..
I think there is a lot of surmising going on here. Let me be clear, I have no problem with the surmising the apostles may have done. Surmising can be highly informative and accurate to a degree. How often do we look at someones face and their condition and surmise what has been going on, considering all the circumstances. Of course, different persons will surmise differently and that explains why Mark surmised differenlty than Luke. It has nothing to do with accuracy but of the human presence in the creation of the Word. Jesus' humanity was present during this period. The famous image of Him with a $500 haircut and robes by Dolce & Gabbana, perfectly posed and poised is consistent only with His being God, tapping His fingers, smiling inside as He waits for His pathetic little creatures to get on with their business. He suffered in His indecision. He suffered in the challenge to His faith. His decision to go ahead with it was a transcending one I'm sure. If there was some moment His divinity flashed in the cosmic darkness like V838 Mon, it was then. Jesus was no longer a man, He had transcended all that goes into describing a man, He was God on earth.

[winsome]

Originally Posted by antonio

I suggest you read Mark for the first and more accurate encapsulation of the story. Luke relied on Mark but obviously had a different insight.
One should consider, and I have asked this question repeatedly, Since the Apostles were all a little loaded on wine and asleep, how did anyone know what Jesus said, suffered or experienced in the garden.
Some how I don't see Jesus ever revealing what He'd just gone through and particularly in those moments before the soldiers arrived..
I think there is a lot of surmising going on here. Let me be clear, I have no problem with the surmising the apostles may have done. Surmising can be highly informative and accurate to a degree. How often do we look at someones face and their condition and surmise what has been going on, considering all the circumstances. Of course, different persons will surmise differently and that explains why Mark surmised differenlty than Luke. It has nothing to do with accuracy but of the human presence in the creation of the Word. Jesus' humanity was present during this period. The famous image of Him with a $500 haircut and robes by Dolce & Gabbana, perfectly posed and poised is consistent only with His being God, tapping His fingers, smiling inside as He waits for His pathetic little creatures to get on with their business. He suffered in His indecision. He suffered in the challenge to His faith. His decision to go ahead with it was a transcending one I'm sure. If there was some moment His divinity flashed in the cosmic darkness like V838 Mon, it was then. Jesus was no longer a man, He had transcended all that goes into describing a man, He was God on earth.

How do you know Mark is more accurate? Where you there?

How do you know they fell asleep immediately and didn't hear some of Jesus' prayers before dozing off?

How do you know they didn't ask him what happened when he returned with bloody sweat over his face?

Originally Posted by quietude

Jesus said, "If ye love me, keep my commandments." In other words, we show our love for Christ by obeying him. I can obey. I can also not obey. It is my choice. One way or the other, though, it is through Christ's grace, secured for me by the sacrifice of his blood and life, that reconciles me to God. My choice to obey makes it effectual for me. My choice to disobey makes it ineffective, and delivers me to "him whom I have listed to obey." Why make it more complicated than that?

I must disagree here. Our obedience will be only clean the outside of the cup. God said "Be ye perfect, even as your father in heaven is perfect." Only the Spirit in a man can do that one. The flesh cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor truly obey in the way God desires.

Righteousness will not come from fleshly effort. We have assumed all God wants is obedience to the law of commandmetnts and have not understood the purpose of the law was not to show us the path to the kingdom, but rather a roadblock to our pride and to get us on our knees saying "God be merciful to me a sinner." Once that happens? The law is no longer in effect for us,for the spirit now has full control.

"Unless the Lord build the house, they labor in vain hich try to build it."

Originally Posted by BruceG

I must disagree here. Our obedience will be only clean the outside of the cup. God said "Be ye perfect, even as your father in heaven is perfect." Only the Spirit in a man can do that one. The flesh cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor truly obey in the way God desires. Righteousness will not come from fleshly effort. We have assumed all God wants is obedience to the law of commandmetnts and have not understood the purpose of the law was not to show us the path to the kingdom, but rather a roadblock to our pride and to get us on our knees saying "God be merciful to me a sinner." Once that happens? The law is no longer in effect for us,for the spirit now has full control.

It's OK if you disagree. I still think we're saying the same thing.

How do you know Mark is more accurate? Where you there?

How do you know they fell asleep immediately and didn't hear some of Jesus' prayers before dozing off?

How do you know they didn't ask him what happened when he returned with bloody sweat over his face?

ACtually, I know very little on my own. I am a lay person, new to this, who has read what scholars have written. I consider the inferences they draw and with more reading and reflection decide what seems reasonable to me. As I understand, it is likely that the authors of the synoptic Gospels were'nt "there" either. According to most if not all scholars, the author of Mark is supposed to have written first drawing on Q. That author's perspective is quite different than the other two. He gives us nothing about a resurrection. He has Jesus behaving differently before being arrested than the other gospels. For example, the only apostle around when Jesus was on the cross was John. If Jesus said anything while on the cross , John would have heard it. What John says Jesus said, is totally different than the apostles who were off hiding.
There were several occasions Jesus asked the sleeping apostles why they are sleeping. Was Jesus mistaken?
Bloody sweat--I don't see the character of Jesus as one being willing to do anything that would draw attention to the struggle and suffering He had just endured and was anticipating. Further the gospel writers said nothing about Him revealing anything to them. Shortly thereafter most of them ran and hid, denying him. Your "how do you know" scenarios don't ring true for me. If they do for you, I would not argue against it. You are quite right to the effect that no one knows how to fill in the blanks in the NT. There is not a lot of the specifically expressed portions that any two people agree on let alone the gaps. Like the apostles, we see everything about Jesus, the words and the gaps, through our own lenses.