[BeforeThereWas]

I was reading online where the majority of modern, professing Christians believe that institutional church organizations, and their hirelings, are the historic, biblical expressions of the Church and its legitimate leadership on this earth.

Please consider the fact that I'm not speaking for anyone else, but I find this rather hard to accept at face value. This isn't a suggestion that we all abandone the institutional scene, but it's very difficult for me to blindly accept the idea that the local expressions of organized religion and its leaders in each locale have any significant measure of comparative points with the NT scriptures and the early Church.

Most of the appologetics I ran across in favor of institutionalism being the biblical expression of the Church on earth, and its leaders automatically being attributed the respect and authority of biblical stature, stemmed from fallacies such as appeals to popularity, hasty generalizations, and appeals to antiquity. Each of these and other fallacies I observed are fundamental blunders in the realm of logic and reason.

From my own experiences, its blind foolishness to accept any claim on the basis of such shabby appologetics. Leadership of biblical caliber isn't bestowed upon a man simply because he has a degree from a Bible college or theological seminary. The same holds true of denominational ordination. Even though we find the term ordained in the scriptures, I again see no parallel between that word's use in the scriptures, and what's commonly practiced today.

None of this is an endictment against any and all so-called clergymen, but I fail to see that such men magically become men of biblical caliber simply because of some pieces of paper from professional organizations that deal in the busniness of the institutional expression of religion. We see executives glad-handing overly lavish bonuses and benefits upon each other while serving on each other's boards within corporations, so it comes as no surprise that the many religious business organizations will slap their approvals across the backs of those who meet their various criteria, most of which may or may not have anything to do with biblical qualifications for spiritual maturity.

What are your thoughts on all this?

[ICT7133]

Originally Posted by beforetherewas

Leqadership of biblical caliber isn't bestowed upon a man simply because he has a degree from a Bible college or theological seminary.

Very much agreed to. We see a proliferation today of so-called papers and books and lectures written by men with a string of titles after their names, yet when many areas of what they wrote or teach are examined before the light of Scriptures properly considered and interpreted in accordance with context (historical, theological, etc) and laid at the feet of God's sovereignty and pre-eminence I find their arguments and teachings crumbling and most of the time but an extension of the doctrines and tenets that their theological colleges and/or their churches teach.

Their colleges and seminaries have taken the place of the Holy Spirit in teaching truth, and each have their set of "scholars" and these scholars' exegetical works as the basis of their teachings.

The result is a proliferation of churches and denominations each referring to themselves as the harbinger and possessor of doctrinal truth and each calling themselves "Christian church" adding to the confusion of skeptics and others who truly seek true teachings.

One example is the doctrine of eternal salvation. While they teach "how to be saved, and know it" in accordance to their particular denomination's doctrine, all are agreed in one element: man has to contribute something to that salvation either in the form of baptism, of profession, a sinner's prayer, an acceptance of Christ as personal Lord and Savior, church membership, good works, holy and separated living, etc., etc., etc.

Yet the pure and simple doctrine of the Bible regarding eternal salvation is that it is ALL OF THE LORD, it BELONGS TO THE LORD, and requires nothing, nada, zilch, of its recipients because first of all the recipients have been decided on before the foundation of the world, Christ came here in time to redeem those who are recipients of God's mercy, and in so doing, required nothing from them at all. He came, He redeemed, He went. And one day He will come back for them.

Originally Posted by beforetherewas

The same holds true of denominational ordination. Even though we find the term ordained in the scriptures, I again see no parallel between that word's use in the scriptures, and what's commonly practiced today.

The church I belong to, which is a Primitive Baptist church, does it this way.
Any man who seems to be gifted with the gift of preaching or teaching is first a Licentiate, that is somebody who has been set at liberty to preach the gospel. Why "set at liberty" is because not any man may be invited to ascend the pulpit and communicate the Word to the brethren. After having been set at liberty, other churches of our same order are given notice, and they are then free to invite or not invite this brother to preach to them.
After a few years and the brother has been confirmed and attested to by churches to have the gift of teaching and preaching the church he belongs to may then request that he be ordained, and other ordained brethren both elders and deacons are invited to act as the ordaining council, and certain individuals are then assigned certain roles during the ordination: moderator, examiner/s, and finally, the one who delivers the ordination message.
The brother is thus questioned on the essentials of the faith and doctrine believed and adhered to among Primitive Baptists, and thus satisfied, the ordaining brethren lay their hands upon the candidate's head.
From then on, he may be called to pastor and lead ANY Primitive Baptist church who recognizes his ordination as orderly, as opposed to being a Licentiate where he may not pastor a church.
The title of Reverend is never attached to the brother, for that title belongs to the Lord and only to the Lord's Name.
Rather he is given the Scriptural title of Elder, regardless of his age.
No other requirement is set upon him than that his gift of preaching has been tested among other brethren.
One of my beloved pastors, who went to the with the Lord at the age of 102had a secular education of only Third Grade, and the majority of those who are ordained among our order, have not gone to Bible College, Bible Seminary, or the likes.
What we know of Scriptures are what our people have held on for centuries, and what we have personally gleaned and understood under personal study of the Scriptures and under guidance and revelation of the Holy Spirit.

Note: he is not an ordained elder of THE Primitive Baptist Church, for there is no such church, but he is an ordained elder
at a Primitve Baptist church, that is, the church that called for his ordination, although he is addressed as Elder by all members of all Primitive Baptist churches.

[shonika8]

Originally Posted by ICT7133

Very much agreed to. We see a proliferation today of so-called papers and books and lectures written by men with a string of titles after their names, yet when many areas of what they wrote or teach are examined before the light of Scriptures properly considered and interpreted in accordance with context (historical, theological, etc) and laid at the feet of God's sovereignty and pre-eminence I find their arguments and teachings crumbling and most of the time but an extension of the doctrines and tenets that their theological colleges and/or their churches teach.

Their colleges and seminaries have taken the place of the Holy Spirit in teaching truth, and each have their set of "scholars" and these scholars' exegetical works as the basis of their teachings.

The result is a proliferation of churches and denominations each referring to themselves as the harbinger and possessor of doctrinal truth and each calling themselves "Christian church" adding to the confusion of skeptics and others who truly seek true teachings.

One example is the doctrine of eternal salvation. While they teach "how to be saved, and know it" in accordance to their particular denomination's doctrine, all are agreed in one element: man has to contribute something to that salvation either in the form of baptism, of profession, a sinner's prayer, an acceptance of Christ as personal Lord and Savior, church membership, good works, holy and separated living, etc., etc., etc.

Yet the pure and simple doctrine of the Bible regarding eternal salvation is that it is ALL OF THE LORD, it BELONGS TO THE LORD, and requires nothing, nada, zilch, of its recipients because first of all the recipients have been decided on before the foundation of the world, Christ came here in time to redeem those who are recipients of God's mercy, and in so doing, required nothing from them at all. He came, He redeemed, He went. And one day He will come back for them.




The church I belong to, which is a Primitive Baptist church, does it this way.
Any man who seems to be gifted with the gift of preaching or teaching is first a Licentiate, that is somebody who has been set at liberty to preach the gospel. Why "set at liberty" is because not any man may be invited to ascend the pulpit and communicate the Word to the brethren. After having been set at liberty, other churches of our same order are given notice, and they are then free to invite or not invite this brother to preach to them.
After a few years and the brother has been confirmed and attested to by churches to have the gift of teaching and preaching the church he belongs to may then request that he be ordained, and other ordained brethren both elders and deacons are invited to act as the ordaining council, and certain individuals are then assigned certain roles during the ordination: moderator, examiner/s, and finally, the one who delivers the ordination message.
The brother is thus questioned on the essentials of the faith and doctrine believed and adhered to among Primitive Baptists, and thus satisfied, the ordaining brethren lay their hands upon the candidate's head.
From then on, he may be called to pastor and lead ANY Primitive Baptist church who recognizes his ordination as orderly, as opposed to being a Licentiate where he may not pastor a church.
The title of Reverend is never attached to the brother, for that title belongs to the Lord and only to the Lord's Name.
Rather he is given the Scriptural title of Elder, regardless of his age.
No other requirement is set upon him than that his gift of preaching has been tested among other brethren.
One of my beloved pastors, who went to the with the Lord at the age of 102had a secular education of only Third Grade, and the majority of those who are ordained among our order, have not gone to Bible College, Bible Seminary, or the likes.
What we know of Scriptures are what our people have held on for centuries, and what we have personally gleaned and understood under personal study of the Scriptures and under guidance and revelation of the Holy Spirit.

Note: he is not an ordained elder of THE Primitive Baptist Church, for there is no such church, but he is an ordained elder
at a Primitve Baptist church, that is, the church that called for his ordination, although he is addressed as Elder by all members of all Primitive Baptist churches.

First I would like to say hi my name is shonika and I'm a christian and to be an elder is'nt up to the church members it is for the one that wants to be an elder that he is in line with the standards of what Gods word says that an elder or decon must meet sertain guide lines First read 1Timothy 3:1-16 this is talking about Bishops and Decons and elders also see Titus 1:5-16 this is what God says how these man are to be in those positions in the church.

[Nimeth]

So as to avoid contention I will not list my disagreements with the above explanations of ordination. Instead I will explain ordination as I understand it as Member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

I believe that God will call whom He will call, and they will be ordained by those to whom God had previously given the authority. any and all ecclesiastical authority must be traced back to God, through Christ.

God, being all knowing, calls those who will be right for the position at that time. There is no formal training prior to a call (though attendance of church Sunday meetings is normal); God trains them through life and previous callings, through personal scripture study and prayer, and through the general teachings from the scriptures at church.

No mortal, nor group of mortals can give someone authority that they do not have, thus it is for God to call his servants through those who have been duly appointed and authorized, again through a direct line to Christ Himself. There is no authority to act in the name of Jesus Christ, except that which He has given.
Leaders in the Church come from all walks of life, as do the other members of the church. My current bishop works in marketing at Nu Skin. I previously had a Bishop that was a High School Mechanics Teacher. These men, along with all the leaders of the Church, are not paid for their church service. It is just that: Service: service to God, and service to man-kind.

I Know that God and Jesus Christ Live, and they are the directors of their church on Earth today. He has called prophets and Apostles in this time, and Given them the authority to speak and act in His name. I love the Lord, and I am grateful that he continues to send guidance in this perilous time.




If you have any interest to know more on this subject please visit Mormon.org - Home

[BeforeThereWas]

Originally Posted by Nimeth

So as to avoid contention I will not list my disagreements with the above explanations of ordination. Instead I will explain ordination as I understand it as Member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Not to be contentious, but appeals to the mormon system of belief renders invalid any idea that there's credible authority behind the dogmas eminating from that religion that anyone should take seriously.

I believe that God will call whom He will call, and they will be ordained by those to whom God had previously given the authority. any and all ecclesiastical authority must be traced back to God, through Christ.

Wrong. Ecclesiastical authority is a creation of men, not of God.

No mortal, nor group of mortals can give someone authority that they do not have, thus it is for God to call his servants through those who have been duly appointed and authorized, again through a direct line to Christ Himself.

So, what you're saying is that the Moron prophet and apostles in Salt Lake City are potentially man-appointed rather than God-appointed? Well, with that I must agree.

My current bishop works in marketing at Nu Skin. I previously had a Bishop that was a High School Mechanics Teacher. These men, along with all the leaders of the Church, are not paid for their church service. It is just that: Service: service to God, and service to man-kind.

Except that within the moron religion, there are many, many inherently false teacings, which renders such men as illegitimate where God is concerned.

As you can see, I prefer to call a spade a spade rather than dance around and worship the illegitimate rise of tolerance that characterizes most of liberal thinking these days.

I Know that God and Jesus Christ Live,

Unfortunately, there are many gods and Jesus' who are false, and nonexistent. That's cause for concern.

He has called prophets and Apostles in this time, and Given them the authority to speak and act in His name.

And yet you can't personally verify the ones in Salt Lake City who are thought by some to be true apostles and prophet. You're having to accept that by blind faith. Those men are unapporachable by you. They're surrounded by protections that keep you from walking into their presence and addressing them with any challenges.

I love the Lord, and I am grateful that he continues to send guidance in this perilous time.

Yes, we have His Holy Spirit rather than fallible men such as the authorities over a religion based out of Utah. If you want to try and legitimize those men as being true authorities under the ordination of the TRUE God, then please do so. Otherwise this all rings hollow.

No one who contends has the spirit of God within exercise of duty and so this must be said, that the spirit of contention is of the devil because contention makes to surpass others for dummies thing that is not Christlike, nor Christ approved.

Is the Mormon Church real? Mormon church has intelligence that can profit to the degree of clean ambitions and habits, has it been upto every individual to follow and entice in the ambitions of this Church that help alleviate evils then there is good enduring to the end even if the Church Mormon is not appreciated by their neighbors who treat these Christians like hooligans and fender-bends.

Every Church of Christ has discipline to offer, let's face it. The beauty of any Religion is honesty. Religion does not have to fit into the norms of being so-call, Religion can also be a trust deep within and a exaltation to more manifest glory connected with God in Christ-hood and believing for the sake of establishing and cure, rather then to disorient and betray.

Everybody needs help to their suffer, it is Christ the ultimate answer, and then after the appreciating to Christ then we are more then welcome to be affixed in recommending to and within ourselves the opportunities of good news that fail us not, this is the news that comes from being established in union with the Holy Spirit of God and to partake of being influenced of a structure of pure formidable allegiance to what is recommendable to-wards plain and simple opportunity of welfare result. Amen.

[BeforeThereWas]

Many call themselves Christian who worship a god of their own making, or someone else's making.

What of them?

How do you discern such wolves in your vicinity?

Many carry the label of Christian upon their lapel, but are nothing of the sort.

Light cannot fellowship with darkness.

[RevStevenMRobinson]

MATTHEW 10.....Christ tells us to be as wise as serpents and as harmless as doves....this chapter tells us what to expect from the world.... also the word tells us that we will know true believers by their works....
granted i am not saved by works, i am saved by grace.....however other's who claim Christ but use him only as a label......can not perform the duties that a Christian is called to do....i truely feel this is true. i see people give to the homless and do so in a grudging manor. this is not of Christ.
i see those that proclaim salvation and teach another way to heaven, besides christ, this is not of Christ.
the word says that we will know them by their works

"Earthly Expression Of The Church... What Is It Really?"

...Christians Really Acting Like Jesus.......

...At Least That's What It's Supposed To Be...

[BeforeThereWas]

I can certainly agree with that.