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  #1  
Old 03-04-2020, 10:53 PM
pryz's Avatar
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Default Where Eucharist Serves

“Eucharistic action into Flesh and Blood.” – Theodore of Mopsuestia Commentary on Matthew 26:26

Does the word of God show contempt for the teaching of the Eucharist? Compare what I have provided here and tell me if every one of them is fully compatible with the definition of the eucharist
Jesus said to them, "Very truly I tell you,
unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man
and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
- (John 6:53)

Whoever has the Son has life;
whoever does not have the
Son of God does not have life.
- (1John 5:12)

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—
and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God
- (Ephesians 2:8)
We cannot add and we cannot take away, we must not tamper with simplicity! Why has so much attention been supplied for us on the flesh and blood and not on the simple but far more important metaphor – “life”?

Would love to hear from all on a more personal level based upon what you know. If vids/auds are necessary, that fine, but I don’t have time for big blocky presentations, so if you don’t mind bringing out the nut of the point with the video, that would be fantastic! Thanks!

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  #2  
Old 03-19-2020, 05:47 PM
mtndot's Avatar
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Default Re: Where Eucharist Serves

I think we have a pattern in the Old Testament (OT) which shows us the Biblical meaning of the New Testament (NT) Eucharist/Lord's Supper, which pattern remains true to Jesus' (difficult) revelation regarding it.

In the OT, the Fellowship (Peace) Offering (Sacrifice) of a cow, goat or sheep was offered for peace and fellowship with God and the priest, where a portion of the sacrificed animal was taken home and eaten by the Israelite, in a communal meal with the priest who had offered it, who ate his portion of the sacrifice back in the Temple courtyard (Lev 7:12-34, 19:5-8).

In eating the actual sacrifice, the Israelite was taking within himself the benefits of that sacrifice; i.e., peace and fellowship with God and the priest who offered it.

In the NT Eucharist, we likewise take within ourselves the actual NT sacrifice of Christ, receiving within ourselves the benefits of that sacrifice--peace and fellowship with God and the priest who offered it (Christ).

So the Eucharist is the NT sacrificial meal where we receive into ourselves (participate in) the NT sacrificed body of Christ, taking within ourselves the benefits of that sacrifice,
pardoning of sin,
peace and acceptance with God,
growth as sons,
access to the throne of grace,
fellowship with God in Christ, the priest who offered it,
eternal (God's) life in our spirit.

Any comments. . .based in Scripture?

Last edited by mtndot : 03-20-2020 at 05:37 PM.
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  #3  
Old 03-19-2020, 08:41 PM
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Default Re: Where Eucharist Serves

Quote:
Originally Posted by mtndot View Post
I think we have a pattern in the Old Testament (OT) which shows us the Biblical meaning of the New Testament (NT) Eucharist/Lord's Supper, which pattern remains true to Jesus' (difficult) revelation regarding it.

In the OT, the Fellowship (Peace) Offering (Sacrifice) of a cow, goat or sheep was offered for peace and fellowship with God and the priest, where a portion of the sacrificed animal was taken home and eaten by the Israelite, in a communal meal with the priest who had offered it, who ate his portion of the sacrifice back in the Temple courtyard (Lev 7:12-34, 19:5-8).

In eating the actual sacrifice, the Israelite was taking within himself the benefits of that sacrifice; i.e., peace and fellowship with God and the priest who offered it.

In the NT Eucharist, we likewise take within ourselves the actual NT sacrifice of Christ, receiving within ourselves the benefits of that sacrifice--peace and fellowship with God and the priest who offered it (Christ).

So the Eucharist is the NT sacrificial meal where we receive into ourselves (participate in) the NT sacrificed body of Christ, taking within ourselves the benefits of that sacrifice,
pardoning of sin,
peace and acceptance with God,
growth as sons,
access to the throne of grace,
fellowship with God in Christ, the priest who offered it;
i.e., eternal (God's) life within our spirit.

Any comments. . .based in Scripture?
Interesting points made, truly!

I, like many welcome the Apostolic teachings / traditions, not the least among these things said, one inscription reads, “be ye followers of me as I also am of follow Christ”. The word of Christ and the Apostles have not let us wander far unto our own devises concerning the Lord’s table. But not all.

In the truest sense, it is a marvel that the teachings of the Eucharist and the liberty it takes to extract “receiving” (not life) even when it is not clearly seen. But then, refuse available exactness of the Holy Spirit with that same zealous promotion over openly stated; 1. “Proclamation” of the sacrificial fulfillment and 2. “Discernment” of the body, the Church.
Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body.

(1 Corinthians 11:27-29)
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  #4  
Old 03-20-2020, 05:15 PM
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Default Re: Where Eucharist Serves

Quote:
Originally Posted by pryz View Post
Interesting points made, truly!
As was your response!
Quote:
I, like many welcome the Apostolic teachings / traditions, not the least among these things said, one inscription reads, “be ye followers of me as I also am of follow Christ”.
Be ye followers of me as I also (am) of Christ.

I'm curious as to why you give this teaching particular mention.
Quote:
The word of Christ and the Apostles have not let us wander far unto our own devises concerning the Lord’s table. But not all.

In the truest sense, it is a marvel that the teachings of the Eucharist and the liberty it takes to extract “receiving” (not life) even when it is not clearly seen.
The grammatical construction of the sentence here is confusing me. Do you mean:
It is a marvel the liberty it takes to, from the teachings of the Eucharist, extract "receiving" (not life) even when it is not clearly seen.

I agree. . .Paul does not use "receiving" here, but is the issue with which Paul is dealing in 1Co meant to be the total and complete understanding of the Eucharist, wherein he states the bread and the cup are the body and blood of the Lord and, therefore, eating and drinking them in an unworthy manner is a grievous offense bringing discipline from God? His only teaching there regarding the nature of the Lord's Supper is that it is the body and blood of the Lord.

Do you think that precludes types/patterns from the OT which show us the meaning of so many salvation truths in the NT; e.g., Passover Lamb, kinsman redeemer (Goel), perfect High Priest, Prince of Peace, etc.?

For it could also be stated that feeding on the sacrifice (Jn 6:51-58) is to receive/believe in and to trust on it as the object of saving faith. . . or that it is the first fruits and down payment on that communion with God in Christ of the life to come (Mt 22:2, 26:26-29; Lk 22:30; Rev 3:20, 19:7-9). . .or both. . .or more. . .or anything else in Scripture that has bearing on it.
Quote:
But then, refuse available exactness of the Holy Spirit with that same zealous promotion over openly stated; 1. “Proclamation” of the sacrificial fulfillment and 2. “Discernment” of the body, the Church.
Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body.

(1 Corinthians 11:27-29)
I understand "guilty of" to mean the bread and the cup are the body and blood of the Lord; i.e., the NT sacrificial meal, and
"unworthy manner" to refer to their self-centered behavior in vv. 20-21 showing no regard for the assembly as the one body of Christ participating in the one loaf,
which resulted in God's disciplinary judgment of physical sickness and death (v.30).

Is that the way you see it?

Last edited by mtndot : 03-24-2020 at 12:10 PM.
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  #5  
Old 03-21-2020, 11:44 AM
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Default Re: Where Eucharist Serves

Quote:
Originally Posted by pryz View Post
“Eucharistic action into Flesh and Blood.” – Theodore of Mopsuestia Commentary on Matthew 26:26

Does the word of God show contempt for the teaching of the Eucharist? Compare what I have provided here and tell me if every one of them is fully compatible with the definition of the eucharist
Hi, guy. . .would you like to discuss your OP?

Great. . .so let's start with "definition of the eucharist." I don't think I know what that definitions is. All I know is that the bread and the cup are the body and blood of Christ, of which we are commanded to partake to proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.
Is that the definition to which you refer?

Quote:
Jesus said to them, "Very truly I tell you,
unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man
and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
- (John 6:53)

Whoever has the Son has life;
whoever does not have the
Son of God does not have life.
- (1John 5:12)

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—
and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God
- (Ephesians 2:8)

We cannot add and we cannot take away, we must not tamper with simplicity! Why has so much attention been supplied for us on the flesh and blood and not on the simple but far more important metaphor – “life”?

Would love to hear from all on a more personal level based upon what you know. If vids/auds are necessary, that fine, but I don’t have time for big blocky presentations, so if you don’t mind bringing out the nut of the point with the video, that would be fantastic! Thanks!
Okay. . .would you believe I also have some thoughts on the far more important metaphor - "life."
I knew you would.

And that is, I think "life" here is more than a metaphor, or an analogy or likeness.
I think Jesus is speaking of the real thing--eternal life (Jn 3:15); i.e., God's life in our spirit (1Jn 3:9, 24, 4:7, 12-13, 15-16, 5:1, 4)
through its rebirth (Jn 3:6), new begetting (1Jn 3:9), regeneration (Titus 3:5), second birth, raising from spiritual death, etc.,
which comes through faith in Jesus Christ and his atoning work for one's sin (1Jn 4:10).

Sinners (all the sons of Adam) cannot receive the things of the Spirit, which are the truths concerning Christ (Jn 3:3), until the Spirit himself has made them new creatures through rebirth (Jn 3:5-8), because "the man without the Spirit (i.e., unregenerate man) does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned" (1Co 2:14), and his spirit is dead (Jn 5:24; Eph 2:1; 1Jn 3:14-15).

So the "life" which Jesus brings us (Jn 10:10), through faith, is God's own life in our spirits, through being reborn of God's seed (1Jn 3:9-10). This eternal (God's) life results in the inner quickening (enlivening) of the believer, bringing him under the effective rule of the Holy Spirit and making him responsive to God, which he was not before, when he was dead in his trespasses and sins (Eph 2:1).
And this renewing work of eternal (God's) life in our spirit continues throughout the believer's life, where his inner man (spirit) is renewed every day (2Co 4:16) in the continuing process of sanctification.

That is the abundant life Jesus brings. Yes?

So when in faith we feed on the body and blood of the Lord in the Eucharist, we are taking within and appropriating to ourselves his sacrificial death for sin, thereby proclaiming the Lord's death until he comes. Yes?

Last edited by mtndot : 03-21-2020 at 06:49 PM.
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  #6  
Old 03-22-2020, 07:41 AM
pryz's Avatar
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Default Re: Where Eucharist Serves

Quote:
Originally Posted by mtndot View Post
Hi, guy. . .would you like to discuss your OP?

Great. . .so let's start with "definition of the eucharist." I don't think I know what that definitions is. All I know is that the bread and the cup are the body and blood of Christ, of which we are commanded to partake to proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.
Is that the definition to which you refer?


Okay. . .would you believe I also have some thoughts on the far more important metaphor - "life."
I knew you would.

And that is, I think "life" here is more than a metaphor, or an analogy or likeness.
I think Jesus is speaking of the real thing--eternal life (Jn 3:15); i.e., God's life in our spirit (1Jn 3:9, 24, 4:7, 12-13, 15-16, 5:1, 4)
through its rebirth (Jn 3:6), new begetting (1Jn 3:9), regeneration (Titus 3:5), second birth, raising from spiritual death, etc.,
which comes through faith in Jesus Christ and his atoning work for one's sin (1Jn 4:10).

Sinners (all the sons of Adam) cannot receive the things of the Spirit, which are the truths concerning Christ (Jn 3:3), until the Spirit himself has made them new creatures through rebirth (Jn 3:5-8), because "the man without the Spirit (i.e., unregenerate man) does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned" (1Co 2:14), and his spirit is dead (Jn 5:24; Eph 2:1; 1Jn 3:14-15).

So the "life" which Jesus brings us (Jn 10:10), through faith, is God's own life in our spirits, through being reborn of God's seed (1Jn 3:9-10). This eternal (God's) life results in the inner quickening (enlivening) of the believer, bringing him under the effective rule of the Holy Spirit and making him responsive to God, which he was not before, when he was dead in his trespasses and sins (Eph 2:1).
And this renewing work of eternal (God's) life in our spirit continues throughout the believer's life, where his inner man (spirit) is renewed every day (2Co 4:16) in the continuing process of sanctification.

That is the abundant life Jesus brings. Yes?

So when in faith we feed on the body and blood of the Lord in the Eucharist, we are taking within and appropriating to ourselves his sacrificial death for sin, thereby proclaiming the Lord's death until he comes. Yes?

Your first and second posts are sensitive replies! Refreshing and thanks for taking the time!

On occasion, we here, the seasoned crew could learn from sensitivity, but generally a great company of believers although now somehow tapped out of reasons to maintain presence.

May I comment on one thing first, I would like to head this off if you don’t mind with for lack of a better description, cascading prominence that may have subterranean presence without one or both of our knowledge.

From what I gather, the field of knowledge being brought to the table most commonly suffers sluggishness by either, personal independence and or allegiance under the headings of,

One, doctrine
Two, church

Now I cannot comment on anyone’s upbringing or being discipled, possible exuberant indoctrinating influence, not without sampling that person’s preferential point of that final authoritative aspect.

Myself, a continual refrain is ever present over the Apostle’s narrative due to such a warning to guard against corruption of whole flocks. That often carries a price to pay with cherished friendships if need be. Obviously, others neither see the need nor elevate the warning.

I am not suggesting in the smallest sense that has affected your response to my comment, but I do leave that confirmation or definition, whichever the case may be in your handling. That is to say if we are to mediate any personal persuasion towards productive improvements if needed.

Yes, I would like to discuss, for the time, I’ll gather contemplation for a brief period.
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Old 03-22-2020, 10:38 AM
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Default Re: Where Eucharist Serves

Quote:
Originally Posted by pryz View Post

Your first and second posts are sensitive replies! Refreshing and thanks for taking the time!

On occasion, we here, the seasoned crew could learn from sensitivity, but generally a great company of believers although now somehow tapped out of reasons to maintain presence.

May I comment on one thing first, I would like to head this off if you don’t mind with for lack of a better description, cascading prominence that may have subterranean presence without one or both of our knowledge.

From what I gather, the field of knowledge being brought to the table most commonly suffers sluggishness by either, personal independence and or allegiance under the headings of,

One, doctrine
Two, church

Now I cannot comment on anyone’s upbringing or being discipled, possible exuberant indoctrinating influence, not without sampling that person’s preferential point of that final authoritative aspect.

Myself, a continual refrain is ever present over the Apostle’s narrative due to such a warning to guard against corruption of whole flocks. That often carries a price to pay with cherished friendships if need be. Obviously, others neither see the need nor elevate the warning.

I am not suggesting in the smallest sense that has affected your response to my comment, but I do leave that confirmation or definition, whichever the case may be in your handling. That is to say if we are to mediate any personal persuasion towards productive improvements if needed.

Yes, I would like to discuss, for the time, I’ll gather contemplation for a brief period.
Thanks, guy.

Well, your responses certainly are fun and interesting, to say the least, and always a challenge for me to sort out. . .either I am in the slow group (which in one area I am, which causes me to be literal, not much able to read between the lines) or your "cryptic" language ("cascading prominence that may have subterranean presence") is simply over my head.

My request for discussion regards simply the post on the table, with any questions I have presented regarding it.

I suspect your cryptic language refers to an interest in my background.
So. . .I have only one authority for doctrine--the Scriptures, and I see no authority over the Scriptures (1Co 4:6).
Doctrine for me is simply a consistent understanding of Scripture in the light of all Scripture,
requiring that understanding to be inconsistent with no Scripture.
It is formed from my own lengthy and thorough study of all the Scriptures, from Gen 1:1 to Bonded Leather,
in the illumination of the Holy Spirit.
Assurance of the truth of my understanding rests in its consistency with all Scripture, without exception.
Needless to say, I was delighted to discover my understanding to be in agreement with the historical Westminster Confession (1647 AD).
Nevertheless, I am necessarily open to being shown any inconsistency of my understanding with the whole of Scripture.

So our basis and common ground would be the Scriptures, understood in the light of themselves.

To your question regarding attention being paid to the importance of "flesh and blood" and not to "life."
Faith in the "flesh and blood" (atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ for one's sin) is the source of the "life" (God's life in our spirit).
So without the flesh and blood there would be no eternal (God's) life for anyone, making the flesh and blood primary.

Actually, both being evangelicals, I think we are in agreement on the Lord's Supper (I mistakenly thought Eucharist was your name for it,
which I assume comes from 1Co 10:16, cup of "thanksgiving," Gr: eucharistia).

But there might be some things on the "life" for us to discuss.

Last edited by mtndot : 03-23-2020 at 11:45 AM.
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  #8  
Old 03-23-2020, 11:24 AM
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Default Re: Where Eucharist Serves

Quote:
Originally Posted by pryz View Post
“Eucharistic action into Flesh and Blood.” – Theodore of Mopsuestia Commentary on Matthew 26:26

Does the word of God show contempt for the teaching of the Eucharist? Compare what I have provided here and tell me if every one of them is fully compatible with the definition of the
Jesus said to them, "Very truly I tell you,
unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man
and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
- (John 6:53)

Whoever has the Son has life;
whoever does not have the
Son of God does not have life.
- (1John 5:12)

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—
and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God
- (Ephesians 2:8)
Actually, it is not transubstantiation which is the gospel-eradicating heresy, rather it is salvation entered into by works of faith, rather than salvation entered into by faith only, which is the gospel-eradicating heresy.

"To the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited (reckoned) as righteousness." (Ro 4:5)

"God credits (reckons) righteousness apart from works." (Ro 4:6)

Righteousness = justification--acquittal of guilt, declared "not guilty," cancelling a legal liability, giving legal status of right-standing before God; however, not right character, the inner renewal of sanctification through practice of obedience, which is the second meaning of righteousness.

Last edited by mtndot : 03-24-2020 at 12:14 PM.
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