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True2Ourselves Forums   > Community Topics > Bible Chat  > The Reclusive Baptismal

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Old 07-04-2019, 11:33 PM
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Default The Reclusive Baptismal

Symptom no.39, ,

How is it there to this day, justification for grading the baptism as originally told by Christ? This is one area many protestant members avoid taking place between long intervals. Yes, I’m talking about frequency.
“Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in
the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, ,

, , Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you.”


(Matthew 28:19, 20)
Should there be certainty or hesitance over water-baptism? I feel Baptism itself is neither necessary nor it will forbid passage, but when convenience becomes plenty, by stalling Christ’s declaration of ‘baptizing’ the score till He come again ushers in an entirely different example for the flock, the aberrance of the declaration no matter how many times a Church service using Matthew’s notation is cited. In some churches it is treated as though sub-conscientiously tolerated. People of God, this shouldn’t be!

A fearful jailer wailed,
“Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”

They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” And they spoke the word of the Lord to him together with all who were in his house. And he took them that very hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he was baptized, he and all his household."

(Acts 16:30-33)
Thoughts and insights most welcome, Thanks!

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Old 07-05-2019, 07:15 PM
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Default Re: The Reclusive Baptismal

Sure! The very long stretches of weeks and months in some cases before new converts participate in water baptism. Group or individual. Which as we can see from the account below, the Apostles had no such tradition.
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Originally Posted by pryz View Post
A fearful jailer wailed,
“Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”

They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” And they spoke the word of the Lord to him together with all who were in his house. And he took them that very hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he was baptized, he and all his household."

(Acts 16:30-33)
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Old 07-05-2019, 07:18 PM
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Default Re: The Reclusive Baptismal

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Originally Posted by Lookinforacity View Post
I don't have a clue as to what your talking about, or what your point actually is.
Surely, the term "frequency" wasn't all that poor of an identifier?
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Old 07-06-2019, 07:48 AM
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Arrow Re: The Reclusive Baptismal

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Originally Posted by pryz View Post
How is it there to this day, justification for grading the baptism as originally told by Christ?
When in doubt, turn to the early fathers. They are unanimous in saying that water baptism saves and is necessary.

And adding to that, Paul also notes that baptism replaces circumcision, and therefore just as circumcision was absolutely necessary for entering into OT covenants, baptism is necessary for entering into the covenant established by Christ.

So baptism serves a multifold purpose: The literal washing away of sins, and the sign of the entrance into the covenant Family of God.
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Originally Posted by pryz View Post
“Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in
the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, ,
, , Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you.”
(Matthew 28:19, 20)
I stand firm that this is the mission given to the apostles and handed on to the bishops, teaching and the administering the sacraments (of which baptism is one).
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Originally Posted by pryz View Post
Should there be certainty or hesitance over water-baptism?
Certainty.
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Originally Posted by pryz View Post
I feel Baptism itself is neither necessary nor it will forbid passage
I must respectfully disagree.
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Originally Posted by pryz View Post
A fearful jailer wailed,
“Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” And they spoke the word of the Lord to him together with all who were in his house. And he took them that very hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he was baptized, he and all his household."
(Acts 16:30-33)
This seems to support my point. The sacred authors felt it was important to note that they were immediately baptized. Hesitation after coming to believe is not good.


The Necessity of Baptism
source

Christians have always interpreted the Bible literally when it declares, “Baptism . . . now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ” (1 Pet. 3:21; cf. Acts 2:38, 22:16, Rom. 6:3–4, Col. 2:11–12).

Thus the early Church Fathers wrote in the Nicene Creed (A.D. 381), “We believe in one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.”

And the Catechism of the Catholic Church states: “The Lord himself affirms that baptism is necessary for salvation [John 3:5]. . . . Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament [Mark 16:16]” (CCC 1257).

The Christian belief that baptism is necessary for salvation is so unshakable that even the Protestant Martin Luther affirmed the necessity of baptism. He wrote: “Baptism is no human plaything but is instituted by God himself. Moreover, it is solemnly and strictly commanded that we must be baptized or we shall not be saved” (Large Catechism 4:6).

Yet Christians have also always realized that the necessity of water baptism is a normative rather than an absolute necessity. There are exceptions to water baptism: It is possible to be saved through “baptism of blood” (martyrdom for Christ) or through “baptism of desire” (that is, an explicit or even implicit desire for baptism).

Thus the Catechism of the Catholic Church states: “Those who die for the faith, those who are catechumens, and all those who, without knowing of the Church but acting under the inspiration of grace, seek God sincerely and strive to fulfill his will, are saved even if they have not been baptized” (CCC 1281; the salvation of unbaptized infants is also possible under this system; see CCC 1260–1, 1283).

As the following passages from the works of the Church Fathers illustrate, Christians have always believed in the normative necessity of water baptism, while also acknowledging the legitimacy of baptism by desire or blood
: Link to Early Fathers Writings


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Last edited by CatholicCrusader : 07-06-2019 at 07:51 AM.
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Old 07-06-2019, 08:24 AM
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Default Re: The Reclusive Baptismal

I am also sure you remember this thread: "Born Again", the Bible Way
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Old 07-06-2019, 03:27 PM
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Default Re: The Reclusive Baptismal

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Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader View Post
I am also sure you remember this thread: "Born Again", the Bible Way
My how time marches on!! Yes, though very foggy.
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Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader View Post

"Born Again" the Bible Way

By Tim Staples - source link

"Have you been born again, my friend?" Thousands have been asked this question by well-meaning Christians. Of course, by "born again" they actually mean: "Have you accepted Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior through the recitation of ‘the sinner’s prayer?’" How is one to respond?

The simple response is: "Yes, I have been born again—when I was baptized." In fact, Jesus’ famous "born again" discourse of John 3:3–5, which is where we find the words "born again" in Scripture, teaches us about the essential nature of baptism:
Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God." Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?" Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
When a Fundamentalist or Evangelical hears the Catholic position on the matter, the response is mostly predictable: "Baptism does not save you, brother; John 3:5 says we must be born of water and the Spirit." The Catholic will then be told the "water" of John 3:5 has nothing to do with baptism. Depending on the preference of the one to whom the Catholic is speaking, the "water" will either be interpreted as man’s natural birth (the "water" being amniotic fluid), and "the Spirit" would then represent the new birth—or the water would represent the word of God through which one is born again when he accepts Jesus as his personal Lord and Savior.


Amniotic Fluid vs. Baptismal Water

To claim that the "water" of John 3:5 is amniotic fluid is to stretch the context just a smidgen! When we consider the actual words and surrounding context of John 3, the waters of baptism seem to be a more reasonable interpretation of what it means to be "born again." Consider these surrounding texts:
  • John 1:31–34: Jesus was baptized. If you compare the parallel passage in Matthew’s Gospel (3:16), you find that when Jesus was baptized, "the heavens were opened" and the Spirit descended upon him. Obviously, this was not because Jesus needed to be baptized. In fact, John the Baptist noted that he needed to be baptized by Jesus (see Matt. 3:14). Jesus was baptized in order "fulfill all righteousness" and "to give knowledge of salvation to his people in the forgiveness of their sins" (cf. Matt. 3:15; Luke 1:77). In other words, Jesus demonstrably showed us the way the heavens would be opened to us so that the Holy Spirit would descend upon us—through baptism.
  • John 2:1–11: Jesus performed his first miracle. He transformed water into wine. Notice Jesus used water from "six stone jars . . . for the Jewish rites of purification." According to the Septuagint as well as the New Testament these purification waters were called baptismoi (see Num. 19:9–19; cf. Mark 7:4). We know that Old Testament rites, sacrifices, etc. were only "a shadow of the good things to come" (Heb. 10:1). They could never take away sins. This may well be why John specifies "six" stone jars—to denote imperfection, or "a human number" (cf. Rev. 13:18). It is interesting to note that Jesus transformed these Old Testament baptismal waters into wine—a symbol of New Covenant perfection (see Joel 3:18; Matt. 9:17).
  • John 3:22: Immediately after Jesus’ "born again" discourse to Nicodemus, what does he do? He baptizes. This is the only time in Scripture we find Jesus actually baptizing.
  • John 4:1–2: Jesus’ disciples then begin to baptize at Jesus’ command. (Note: John 4:1–2 appears to be a further clarification of 3:22. But it is unclear. It appears to say that Jesus only baptized his disciples and then they baptized everyone else. Some hold it to say Jesus never baptized at all.)
In summary, Jesus was baptized, transformed the "baptismal" waters, and then gave his famous "born again" discourse. He then baptized before commissioning the apostles to go out and baptize. To deny Jesus was teaching us about baptism in John 3:3–5 is to ignore the clear biblical context.

Moreover, John 3:5 is not describing two events; it describes one event. The text does not say "unless one is born of water and then born again of the Spirit . . . " It says "unless one is born of water and Spirit . . ." If we hearken back to the Lord’s own baptism in John 1 and Matthew 3, we notice that when our Lord was baptized, the Holy Spirit descended simultaneously upon him. This was one event, involving both water and the Spirit. And so it is with our baptism. If we obey God in being baptized—that’s our part of the deal—we can count on God to "open the heavens" for us concurrently and give us the Holy Spirit.

And finally, it would be anachronistic to read into Jesus’ use of "water" to mean physical birth in John’s Gospel. In fact, John had just used a word to refer to physical birth in John 1:12–13, but it wasn’t "water:" "But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God; who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."

John here tells us that we are not made children of God by birth ("of blood"), or by our own attempts whether they be through our lower nature ("of the flesh") or even through the higher powers of our soul ("the will of man"). Rather, we must be born of God, or by God’s power. Notice John refers to natural birth colloquially as "of blood," not "of water."


Washing of Water by the Word

It is perhaps an even greater stretch to claim that the "water" of John 3:3–5 represents the word of God. At least with the amniotic fluid argument, you have mention of "birth" in the immediate context. However, a Protestant will sometimes refer to Ephesians 5:25–26 and a few other texts to make this point: "Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word . . ."

"See?" he may say, "The ‘washing of water’ is here equated to ‘the word’ that cleanses us." If you couple this text with Jesus’ words in John 15:3—"You are already made clean by the word which I have spoken to you"—the claim is made, "the water" of John 3:5 would actually refer to the word of God rather than baptism. And finally, he might add Romans 10:9–10 to the mix: "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation" (KJV).

Though John 3:3–5 does not explicitly say man is born again by accepting Jesus, some Protestants connect all of these verses together and conclude that the Bible teaches we are saved or "born again" by professing faith in Jesus, not through baptism.


The Catholic Response

Both Catholics and Protestants agree that the word of God is said to "save us" and "cleanse us" inasmuch as it is an instrument used by God to bring his salvation to us that he won for us on the cross. Catholics and Protestants also agree, however, that more is needed than just the word of God for man to be saved. For Protestants, the salvation promised by God’s word is communicated through the individual profession of faith, so that is when a man is "born again." For Catholics, it is through faith and baptism; more specifically, it is through baptism that a man is "born again." The question is: What does the Bible say?

First, confessing Christ is certainly an essential part of the process of salvation. Romans 10:9–10 clearly teaches the one who believes and confesses his faith in Christ will be saved. But it is important to note that Scripture uses this same word—salvation—in various forms to describe many other things man must do in order "to be saved." The one who "believes and is baptized shall be saved" (Mark 16:16). The one who "endures to the end shall be saved" (Matt. 10:22). Indeed, the very same words used by Paul in Romans 10:10, translated as "unto salvation" in the Douay-Rheims Bible (Greek eis soterian), are used to teach Christians we must ". . . long for the pure spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up to salvation" (1 Pet. 2:2). They are also used to challenge Christians to repent of their sins: "For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation" (2 Cor. 7:10). The fact that we must repent, be baptized, grow, confess Christ, and endure until the end in order to be saved indicates salvation is a process. There is no doubt that Paul was speaking of part of this process in Romans 10:9–10. However, there is nothing in that text that would lead us to believe he is speaking of how a person is born again.

This leads us to the most important point. Both Catholics and Protestants agree that Jesus’ words—unless one is born anew (or, again)—speak of man’s initial entrance into the body of Christ through God’s grace. The texts mentioned above by Protestants do not necessarily refer to the initial grace of salvation. What does the Bible teach is the instrument whereby one first enters into Christ? This would be precisely what we are talking about when we speak of being "born again." The good news is Scripture makes it abundantly clear: We are incorporated into the Body of Christ through baptism.
  • Romans 6:3–4: Are you unaware that we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were indeed buried with him through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might live in newness of life.
  • Galatians 3:27: For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
  • 1 Corinthians 12:13: For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit (see also Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, and Col. 2:11–13).
If baptism is the way the unsaved are brought into Christ, no wonder Christ spoke of being "born of water and spirit." Baptism is the instrument of new birth according to the New Testament.


Spirit vs. Water

Many Fundamentalists will claim we are confusing spiritual baptism with water baptism. Again, they would say, water baptism does not save you. And they will often point to 1 Corinthians 12:13, quoted above, to "prove" their point. Notice, they say, the text teaches it is the Spirit who baptizes us into Christ, not a man!

The Catholic Church agrees that it is the Holy Spirit incorporates us into Christ, just as it is the Holy Spirit who "convince[s] the world of sin and of righteousness and of judgment," according to John 16:8. But the Holy Spirit uses human instruments to convey the message. "How shall they hear without a preacher?" (Rom. 10:14). The Bible certainly teaches that baptism is the Holy Spirit’s instrument to bring humanity into the Body of Christ as we have seen. But because God uses human beings to baptize, this does not mean it is any less the work of the Spirit through them.

As far as baptism saving us, the Bible could hardly be plainer. In Acts 2:38, St. Peter declared: "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." In Acts 22:16, Ananias announced to St. Paul who had already professed faith in Jesus as Lord in verse 10: ". . . rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name." And 1 Peter 3:20–21 records these plain words: ". . . in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the Resurrection of Jesus Christ." According to the Bible, baptism is not the mere removal of dirt from the body, but Christ’s instrument in purging our conscience from sin. That is what being "born-again" is all about!
From stem to stern, I did not see the immediacy of my OP’s Acts 16:30-33 mentioned. But it looks as though Catholics are more suited to this task than most Protestants.
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Old 07-06-2019, 03:41 PM
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Default Re: The Reclusive Baptismal

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From stem to stern, I did not see the immediacy of my OP’s Acts 16:30-33 mentioned. But it looks as though Catholics are more suited to this task than most Protestants
Well, as I said, I think that immediacy lends itself more toward being in favor of the position that baptism is indeed necessary. Yes?
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Old 07-07-2019, 04:29 AM
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Default Re: The Reclusive Baptismal

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Well, as I said, I think that immediacy lends itself more toward being in favor of the position that baptism is indeed necessary. Yes?
Baptism necessary? Dealt w/a little in my opening second paragraph. Yet, I tend to avail additional reason to apply or resist if possible,
“, , those things which are not convenient” (Rom 1:28)
We have “believe” coupled with “baptism’ from the text to be saved. But we also have “believe” independent of baptism from the text to be saved. However, whenever convenience has place (Acts 16:30-33), I believe that is the time when those text such as confirmed here and shown in one passage, have the full weight of God’s will to refuse,
He that believes and is baptized shall be saved,
but he that believes not shall be condemned.


(Mark 16:16)

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Old 07-07-2019, 08:35 AM
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Default Re: The Reclusive Baptismal

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Originally Posted by pryz View Post
He that believes and is baptized shall be saved,
but he that believes not shall be condemned
The video sort of speaks to this.
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Old 07-08-2019, 04:32 AM
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Default Re: The Reclusive Baptismal

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Sure! The very long stretches of weeks and months in some cases before new converts participate in water baptism. Group or individual. Which as we can see from the account below, the Apostles had no such tradition.
A reply to Lookingforacity. But I see there is no longer any evidence he ever did make the statement which was wanting clarification on the OP. Sorry if I have somehow offended!
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