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True2Ourselves Forums   > Community Topics > Bible Chat  > A warning to born-again believers who are sinning habitually

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  #21  
Old 11-07-2018, 10:23 AM
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Default Re: A warning to born-again believers who are sinning habitually

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader View Post
John 20:23 "If you forgive anyone's sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven"
IMO, much more important is the verse where Jesus says (paraphrasing) ...
"If you don't forgive someone of his/her sin, Father God will NOT forgive you of your sins."
Do you get into heaven, if the Father has not forgiven you?
IMO, no.
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  #22  
Old 11-07-2018, 01:47 PM
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Default Re: A warning to born-again believers who are sinning habitually

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Originally Posted by BCsenior View Post
IMO, much more important is the verse where Jesus says (paraphrasing) ...
"If you don't forgive someone of his/her sin, Father God will NOT forgive you of your sins."
Do you get into heaven, if the Father has not forgiven you?
IMO, no.
Well, in the context of what I was trying to say, those are apples and oranges.

My quote of John 20:23 was meant to demonstrate a time when Jesus was only speaking to the twelve and not to all believers.

Your quote of Matthew 6:14-15 on the other hand is an example of a "work" we must do in order to be saved, which as far as I am concerned is proof that we are saved by faith & works and not by faith alone.
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  #23  
Old 11-07-2018, 03:29 PM
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Default Re: A warning to born-again believers who are sinning habitually

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Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader View Post
My quote of John 20:23 was meant to demonstrate a time when Jesus was only speaking to the twelve and not to all believers.
Yes, of course, you are correct.
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  #24  
Old 11-09-2018, 07:26 PM
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Default Re: A warning to born-again believers who are sinning habitually

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Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader View Post
See post 11. Note that He says that those who do not do the good works go to hell.
Is there a difference between the Works Christ Commanded us to do, and those Works which every Christian has been Ordained to do?
Eph 2:10*
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader View Post
I would also point out Matthew 6:14-15: "For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.".
So forgiving others is also a must-do work to be saved. If you don't then your sins are not forgiven; Plain as day

Actually its by faith AND works, not by faith alone.
In fact there is only one place in the Bible where the two words "faith alone" appear side by side, and that is in James 2:24, and guess what it says: "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone."

Never said such a thing

I am not speaking to the Straw man debate of "Faith Alone" as opposed to "Faith and Works", no, not at all, but what I am speaking to is, the Bible clearly says "BY FAITH"

You have pointed out it does not say* "Faith Alone"* in like manner, it also does not say,* "FAITH and WORKS"

Therefore both arguments are awash, but, when you look up* "BY FAITH"* this is what is found.

Act_15:9*
And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Act_26:18*
To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Rom_1:17*
For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Rom_3:22*
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Rom_5:2*
By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Rom_11:20*
Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

2Co_1:24*
Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.

Gal_3:22*
But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Gal_3:26*
For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Gal_5:5*
For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

Eph_3:17*
That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,

Php_3:9*
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:




Rom_3:28*
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Rom_5:1*
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Gal_3:11*
But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Gal_3:24*
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.



Rom 4:1* What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?*
Rom 4:2* For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.*


Rom 4:3* For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.*
Rom 4:4* Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.*



Rom 4:5* But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.



JIM

Last edited by Lookinforacity : 11-09-2018 at 07:29 PM.
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  #25  
Old 11-09-2018, 09:31 PM
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Default Re: A warning to born-again believers who are sinning habitually

Okay, let's remember that this saving faith must ENDURE until the end of life for one to receive eternal life.
Anyone care to see a page full of NT verses?
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  #26  
Old 11-10-2018, 09:29 AM
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Arrow Re: A warning to born-again believers who are sinning habitually

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Originally Posted by BCsenior View Post
Okay, let's remember that this saving faith must ENDURE until the end of life for one to receive eternal life......
I agree. Unfortunately, such a general statement can be taken in many ways. Your statement totally fits in with my Catholic Faith, but I am sure it also fits in with someone who believes differently too.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lookinforacity View Post
Is there a difference between the Works Christ Commanded us to do, and those Works which every Christian has been Ordained to do?.....
I don't know, is there? If I were to wax philosophical I could say that the entire Bible is the Word of God, and Christ is the "Word", so everything in there is commanded by Christ. How's that.

My first gut reaction is to say, No, there is no difference.

My next reaction is to point out what I have been taught regarding works:

The corporal works of mercy: (1) To feed the hungry; (2) To give drink to the thirsty; (3) To clothe the naked; (4) To harbor the harborless; (5) To visit the sick; (6) To ransom the captive; (7) To bury the dead.

The spiritual works of mercy: (I) To instruct the ignorant; (2) To counsel the doubtful; (3) To admonish sinners; (4) To bear wrongs patiently; (5) To forgive offenses willingly; (6) To comfort the afflicted; (7) To pray for the living and the dead.

My NEXT reaction is to go to the sacraments: We must be baptized, we must attend mass (do this in memory of me) and we must not sin,or at least try our best not to sin.

I think that pretty much covers it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lookinforacity View Post
.....I am not speaking to the Straw man debate of "Faith Alone" as opposed to "Faith and Works"......
Straw Man debate? Wow. That is THE debate for the last 500+ years! . And you opened the door to it when you said, "Oh by the way, Salvation is not of works, but by Faith, and the Grace of God, not of ourselves."

You can't throw that out there and then spin around and say "I am not speaking to the Straw man debate of 'Faith Alone' as opposed to 'Faith and Works'". That is EXACTLY what you were speaking about!
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"God in his deepest mystery is not a solitude but a family, since he has in himself fatherhood, sonship and the essence of the family which is love"
- Saint Pope John Paul II

Last edited by CatholicCrusader : 11-10-2018 at 09:35 AM.
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  #27  
Old 11-10-2018, 12:15 PM
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Default Re: A warning to born-again believers who are sinning habitually

Since a BAC PROVES who he is (and that his faith is genuine)
by the works that he does ... it should then be obvious that
works must accompany faith for salvation.

Ephesians 2:8-9 is just saying that salvation is NOT by works ALONE!
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  #28  
Old 11-10-2018, 01:56 PM
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Default Re: A warning to born-again believers who are sinning habitually

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Originally Posted by BCsenior View Post
Since a BAC PROVES who he is (and that his faith is genuine) by the works that he does.......
I disagree. I believe in free will. I also believe one is "born again" through the sacrament of baptism.

Because we have free will, good works are an act of our will. We are "prompted" by the Holy Spirit to do good works, but ultimately it is by our free will that we must cooperate with the Holy Spirit to do those works.

We are not puppets on a string. We don't automatically bounce up of the couch and do good works simply because we are born again.

A person can be born again, and have honest faith, and still be lazy slug who does not respond to the promptings of the Spirit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BCsenior View Post
... it should then be obvious that works must accompany faith for salvation........
Works should accompany faith, but they don't always. Like I said, a person can be born again, and have honest faith, and still be lazy slug who does not respond to the promptings of the Spirit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BCsenior View Post
.....Ephesians 2:8-9 is just saying that salvation is NOT by works ALONE!
"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God— not because of works, lest any man should boast."

When harmonized with the rest of the Bible, I believe this says that we are saved by Grace Alone (Sola Gratia), and through a working faith - not by faith alone, and not by works of the old law.

But I do agree with your saying not by works alone; as I said before, we respond to the promptings of the Spirit and cooperate with the Holy Spirit. Therefore, the works that matter are the works done with the Holy Spirit, but all the same they are still ultimately acts of our free will. The Holy Spirit (God) never overrides our free will.
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"God in his deepest mystery is not a solitude but a family, since he has in himself fatherhood, sonship and the essence of the family which is love"
- Saint Pope John Paul II
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  #29  
Old 11-10-2018, 04:00 PM
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Default Re: A warning to born-again believers who are sinning habitually

CC ...

James says faith without works is dead.
Most think this means that dead faith is no faith at all.
What dost thou thinkest?
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  #30  
Old 11-11-2018, 12:00 PM
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Arrow Re: A warning to born-again believers who are sinning habitually

Quote:
Originally Posted by BCsenior View Post
CC ...

James says faith without works is dead.
Most think this means that dead faith is no faith at all.
What dost thou thinkest?
As a Catholic, I try not to interpret individual scriptures myself. I believe that personal interpretations after the invention of the printing press is what has caused the Church to fracture into hundreds of denominations over 500 years, each with their own competing and contradictory doctrines. I believe that JESUS established a "teaching" Church, and gave the apostles the power to teach and to bind & loose, and that power was passed down to their successors. I am merely a disciple, a learner, and I submit to Church teaching.

Having said all that, I believe that when this scripture is harmonized with the rest of the scriptures, it says what the Catholic Church teaches about faith and grace and works. If you want to know what that is, give this brief paper a try: Click Here
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"God in his deepest mystery is not a solitude but a family, since he has in himself fatherhood, sonship and the essence of the family which is love"
- Saint Pope John Paul II
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