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True2Ourselves Forums   > Community Topics > Bible Chat  > The "Hail Mary" prayer

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  #21  
Old 02-04-2019, 06:10 PM
Selene's Avatar
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Default Re: The "Hail Mary" prayer

I think the reason that non-Catholics have a difficult time understanding why Catholics pray to the saints is because they see that the saints are deceased in that they are no longer alive on this earth as we are. It's easier to approach a friend or family member who we can see and ask them to pray for us. It would be much harder to ask a saint in Heaven to pray for us because we can't see them.

Christians are taught that those who believe in Christ will have eternal life. They are alive in Him even if they pass away from this earth.

Ephesians 2:5-6 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

Death doesn't separate us from our brothers and sisters living on earth. The Christians on Earth, Heaven, and Purgatory make up the entire mystical Body of Christ. And all who are in the Body of Christ are alive because death has been conquered and cannot separate us from our brothers and sisters on the Earth, Heaven. and Purgatory. Scripture says that we are to pray for each other.

James 5:16 Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much.

While it's okay to ask our brothers on earth to pray for us, many Catholics tend to ask the saints in Heaven to pray for them because the saints in Heaven are more just than those on Earth.
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  #22  
Old 02-05-2019, 03:32 AM
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Default Re: The "Hail Mary" prayer

Though I have been under this understanding for years now Selene, I still find no reason to be moved.

Some things require discussion with plenty of room for improvement. Others, and I’m afraid I too am guilty of attempting to embellish the truth. Forgive me Lord for attempting to devalue, thereby restrain the truth of an un-accompanied Provider from heaven and to show others this disobedience too.

There is simply no room for improvement here due to the fact that there is no biblical bases to add to the Almighty shown in Romans 8:26.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pryz View Post
Just as it is written to accommodate humankind’s finite or lack of constant ability works another throughout our petitioning who Himself, is not seen being accompanied,
“, , the Spirit also helps our weakness: for we know not
what we should pray for as we ought but the Spirit himself makes
intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered."


(Romans 8:26)
Can anyone say with the utmost confidence that if we do come to the point of wanting intercessory intervention, that we should gladly add another to help the Spirit along? As though adding to this knowledge, being soo utterly providential wasn’t over-bargained enough.

The approach just isn’t lining up from some key text!
Yet here again, the text's call for confidence,

Quote:
Originally Posted by pryz View Post
But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus.

(Philippians 4:19)
If our “God” by “Jesus” will be the one supplying our lack from heaven, what Bible bases can be seen adding to that supply, so we aren’t found trifling with an adjustment beyond the canon of scripture?
.
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  #23  
Old 02-05-2019, 07:12 AM
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Default Re: The "Hail Mary" prayer

Quote:
Originally Posted by pryz View Post
(Matthew 18:19)

ask for,
αἰτήσωνται (aitēsōntai)
Strong's Greek 154: To ask, request, petition, demand.


I don’t doubt that which you state might take part, but I don’t see those things spoken on earth being received from heaven are held solitarily to temporal things.

As for the appointed office, I agree, just as the final Apostle said “And last of all He appeared to me” (1 Cor 15:8)

We could go on but why invest in futility? I mean, I'm listening but you are real shrewd on the select option when I weigh-in.

“Binding and loosing”? Sure, I accept that precept within the confines of related scripture. For if I don’t, I become thick and hard of hearing wanting instead to forward the word of God “out of” man (1Cor 14:36) instead of the humility of receiving it soundly by faith.

Is this why you wish to hear ‘simplicity’ when the word of faith directs us differently and then rise up with insightfulness when the hearing is low?

“Simple guy”?

I agreed to your insight, where’s mine?

.
I just wanted a simple answer to who hears our prayers. Thats all. If I pray for you, who hears them or how are they heard. You never answer the question that I ask.
__________________

"God in his deepest mystery is not a solitude but a family, since he has in himself fatherhood, sonship and the essence of the family which is love"
- Saint Pope John Paul II
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  #24  
Old 02-05-2019, 09:11 AM
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Default Re: The "Hail Mary" prayer

Quote:
Originally Posted by pryz View Post
There is simply no room for improvement here due to the fact that there is no biblical bases to add to the Almighty shown in Romans 8:26
.
I am shocked at this response. How can you possibly still be thinking that asking each other to pray for each other is somehow taking away from God. I know for a fact that you are okay with asking someone in your church to pray for you and that is not taking away from God so how is asking a fellow Christian in heaven to pray for us taking away from God? This post of yours proves that you have totally ignored and disregarded everything that has been said on this issue. Bottom line, if I can ask you to pray for me then II can ask Peter or Paul to pray for me, and there is no difference. To say that that is somehow taking away from the almighty is completely disingenuous
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"God in his deepest mystery is not a solitude but a family, since he has in himself fatherhood, sonship and the essence of the family which is love"
- Saint Pope John Paul II

Last edited by CatholicCrusader : 02-05-2019 at 09:19 AM.
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  #25  
Old 02-05-2019, 09:24 PM
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Default Re: The "Hail Mary" prayer

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader View Post
I am shocked at this response. How can you possibly still be thinking that asking each other to pray for each other is somehow taking away from God. I know for a fact that you are okay with asking someone in your church to pray for you and that is not taking away from God so how is asking a fellow Christian in heaven to pray for us taking away from God? This post of yours proves that you have totally ignored and disregarded everything that has been said on this issue. Bottom line, if I can ask you to pray for me then II can ask Peter or Paul to pray for me, and there is no difference. To say that that is somehow taking away from the almighty is completely disingenuous
As I said, most non-Catholics have a difficult time understanding asking someone in Heaven to pray for them. Part of it is because the person is deceased.....gone from this earth. Some find it difficult to understand that those in Heaven are more alive than we are on Earth.
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  #26  
Old 02-05-2019, 09:45 PM
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Default Re: The "Hail Mary" prayer

Quote:
Originally Posted by Selene View Post
As I said, most non-Catholics have a difficult time understanding asking someone in Heaven to pray for them. Part of it is because the person is deceased.....gone from this earth. Some find it difficult to understand that those in Heaven are more alive than we are on Earth.
Agree, evangelicals have left the early Church and use the Bible in a vacuum so they think that when a person has left earth that they are just completely gone but even Hebrews tells us there is a great cloud of witness surrounding us. Believers in Heaven are anything but dead but when you leave the early Church and the Early Church Fathers that is what you get.

In my Church we know that we can ask the Believers in Heaven to pray for us and we do every Sunday in the Liturgy
__________________
Saint Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle, be our protection against the malice and snares of the devil. May God rebuke him we humbly pray; and do thou, O Prince of the Heavenly host, by the power of God, thrust into hell Satan and all evil spirits who wander through the world for the ruin of souls. Amen.
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  #27  
Old 02-05-2019, 11:40 PM
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Default Re: The "Hail Mary" prayer

[quote=CatholicCrusader;208140]Actually, the scriptures say that the saints in heaven hear our prayers, and offer them up to God. Allow me to quote:


As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.


Below is the verse in question.

Rev 5:8
And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

I would have to say, I totally disagree with the findings of the person who wrote the article you have posted.

1) This verse only says the 24 Elders have (Golden Vials, which are the Prayers of Saints), it does not say nor does it indicate there is anyone else but the 24 Elders having such possession, and that they are the only ones who are Offering anything but (Obeisance) to the Lamb, no Offering of Prayers is ever mentioned.

Obeisance
n.
late 14c., "act or fact of obeying," from Old French obeissance "obedience, service, feudal duty" (13c.), from obeissant , present participle of obeir "obey," from Latin oboedire (see obey). Sense in English altered late 14c. to "bending or prostration of the body as a gesture of submission or respect" by confusion with abaisance.

(Online Etymology Dictionary, © 2010 Douglas Harper



[quote=CatholicCrusader;208140]Some might try to argue that in this passage the prayers being offered were not addressed to the saints in heaven, but directly to God. Yet this argument would only strengthen the fact that those in heaven can hear our prayers, for then the saints would be aware of our prayers even when they are not directed to them!

2) As I have previously pointed out, the verse does not indicate such a thing as Prayers being offered up to the (Saints in Heaven), and that only a possession of said Prayers is depicted, therefore without any overriding proof to the contrary, if there were any assuming to be made, it would have to be assumed the Prayers were in fact addressed to God, and not to the Saints in Heaven to then Offer up to God in Intercession.

As far as the Saints in Heaven Hearing the Prayers of the Saints on the Earth, there is no dispute on that matter, it also has no bearing on the question of Intercession, whereas, the intercession of the Saints in Heaven for the Saints on Earth is an assumption that Scripture is saying something which Scripture clearly is not saying, intimating, or alluding to.



[quote=CatholicCrusader;208140]In any event, it is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us. We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints. Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding.


3) In any event, it is clear that this understanding of the Saints in Heaven actively interceding for the Saints on Earth, is an assumption.
We are not explicitly told by John anything of the sort, we are not told the Prayers of the Saints are offered at all, that is the adding to Scripture, what Scripture clearly does not say at all.

4) What then do we know about this Verse?

Facts:
1) There are 24 Elders, each of which have in their possession, a Golden Vial with Prayers of the Saints.
2) They fall down to the Lamb.
3) Nothing by the 24 Elders is ever mentioned as having been offered, let alone the Prayers of the Saints.

Therefore it is understood, that only after assumptions have been made, which are based solely upon a presupposition of belief, that such a verse of Scripture intimates, or alludes to something not clearly spelled out or spoken of, should not be accepted as a basis for Doctrine.


JIM

Last edited by Lookinforacity : 02-06-2019 at 01:43 AM.
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  #28  
Old 02-06-2019, 04:58 AM
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Default Re: The "Hail Mary" prayer

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader View Post
I just wanted a simple answer to who hears our prayers. Thats all. If I pray for you, who hears them or how are they heard. You never answer the question that I ask.
I thought you might comment on that and though I didn’t answer that specific right-away, it did surface in the next post I believe with the use of your contested Matt 18:19.

‘Shocking’? I’ll-say! Looking back and what do we have to show for again arriving at the groundwork of a centuries-old detachment? You think we are held-back by the heavy cords of stagnation. That we should reconsider following that path of latitude church-oversight has provided in reliable liberty.

No wonder ‘simplicity’ is sought when confronted with the cold-realities of God’s word, , but let me introduce you to another latitude of freedom, but I won’t, lest I gen-up more reason to repent.

How is it a "vacuum" WT and then return a handy selection of it also?

.
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  #29  
Old 02-13-2019, 07:15 PM
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Default Re: The "Hail Mary" prayer

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader View Post
I just wanted a simple answer to who hears our prayers. Thats all. If I pray for you, who hears them or how are they heard. You never answer the question that I ask.
Like Paul, I do not speak eloquent, or come “with excellence of speech or of wisdom declaring to you the testimony of God” (Heb. 4.16). And like Peter and the apostles, we must obey God, not men (Acts 5.29).

I simply ask how can Mary, to whom Rcs pray regularly, or for that matter, any other persons in heaven or on earth, hear and answer people’s prayers around the world, an attribute only God possesses? Non-Catholics say praying to her is not biblical, and for as long as the Rc puts its authority above Scripture, there will be false teachings on this.

Rev. 5.8 was quoted, but nothing in the verse says anyone hears the prayers of the saints, as it is in figurative context. When saints in heaven offer prayers, this doesn’t mean they actually hear people’s prayers on earth. What’s the use arguing abt what we do not know… All saints are creations of God, who is infinitely omniscient, omnipotent, so why pray to them when Jesus said He is the Way, Truth and Life, no other? Jesus is enough. God is sufficient... unless we focus on tradition.

The Bible nowhere encourages praying to any person, but to God, and anyone in heaven praying for anyone on earth. Every time it mentions praying or speaking with the dead, it’s in the context of witchcraft or sorcery, as in Lev. 20.27 and Deut. 19.10-13. What need to ask for others in heaven to pray for us, when only God can hear and answer us?*

Regarding the “cloud of witnesses” in Heb. 12.1, I learned the word witness can mean either seeing something, or telling something. It’s said the verb form of witness (martureo) was used 5x in Heb. 11, referring to the giving of testimony, instead of mere watching.

Let me just close with
Heb. 4.16: Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.


*Some verses that show God hears and answers:
1 Peter 3:12 - "For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous and his ears are attentive to their prayer, but the face of the Lord is against those who do evil."

Jeremiah 29:12-13; "Then you will call on me and come and pray to me, and I will listen to you. You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart."

Psalm 66:17-20 - "I cried out to him with my mouth; his praise was on my tongue. If I had cherished sin in my heart, the Lord would not have listened; but God has surely listened and has heard my prayer. Praise be to God, who has not rejected my prayer or withheld his love from me!"
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  #30  
Old 02-13-2019, 11:00 PM
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Default Re: The "Hail Mary" prayer

Two verses spoken by Jesus himself regarding Prayer, and to whom it is to be directed.


John 16:23
And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name,he will give it you.

John 16:26
At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:


JIM
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