True2Ourselves
Already a member? login
Divider
Divider
Divider
Divider
Divider
Divider
Divider
Divider
Divider
Divider
Divider
Divider
  
+
Register FAQ A-Z directory Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

True2Ourselves Forums   > Community Topics > Bible Chat  > The "Hail Mary" prayer

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old 02-01-2018, 07:56 AM
CatholicCrusader's Avatar
Knight of the Forum
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 9,259
Arrow Re: The "Hail Mary" prayer

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark51 View Post
Only Almighty God is the “Hearer of Prayer.”-Psalms 55:1; 65:2 (not inclusive).

Actually, the scriptures say that the saints in heaven hear our prayers, and offer them up to God. Allow me to quote:


"......As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.

Some might try to argue that in this passage the prayers being offered were not addressed to the saints in heaven, but directly to God. Yet this argument would only strengthen the fact that those in heaven can hear our prayers, for then the saints would be aware of our prayers even when they are not directed to them!

In any event, it is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us. We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints. Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding.

One Mediator

Another charge commonly levelled against asking the saints for their intercession is that this violates the sole mediatorship of Christ, which Paul discusses: "For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" (1 Tim. 2:5).

But asking one person to pray for you in no way violates Christ’s mediatorship, as can be seen from considering the way in which Christ is a mediator. First, Christ is a unique mediator between man and God because he is the only person who is both God and man. He is the only bridge between the two, the only God-man. But that role as mediator is not compromised in the least by the fact that others intercede for us. Furthermore, Christ is a unique mediator between God and man because he is the Mediator of the New Covenant (Heb. 9:15, 12:24), just as Moses was the mediator (Greek mesitas) of the Old Covenant (Gal. 3:19–20).

The intercession of fellow Christians—which is what the saints in heaven are—also clearly does not interfere with Christ’s unique mediatorship because in the four verses immediately preceding 1 Timothy 2:5, Paul says that Christians should interceed: "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:1–4). Clearly, then, intercessory prayers offered by Christians on behalf of others is something "good and pleasing to God," not something infringing on Christ’s role as mediator......"


source link
__________________

"God in his deepest mystery is not a solitude but a family, since he has in himself fatherhood, sonship and the essence of the family which is love"
- Saint Pope John Paul II
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 02-01-2019, 08:02 AM
CatholicCrusader's Avatar
Knight of the Forum
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 9,259
Arrow Re: The "Hail Mary" prayer

__________________

"God in his deepest mystery is not a solitude but a family, since he has in himself fatherhood, sonship and the essence of the family which is love"
- Saint Pope John Paul II
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 02-02-2019, 06:13 AM
pryz's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,280
Default Re: The "Hail Mary" prayer

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader View Post
Hail Mary, Full of Grace,
The Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women,
and blessed is the fruit
of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God,
pray for us
sinners now,
and at the hour of death.
Amen.
Haven’t seen Tim’s video yet, ,

Okay, so yes, it would be nice to petition everything available to bring us into that preferable ideal and making our lives happier and a more product member of the Body. Now as you maintain here,
Quote:
“this thread is a simple thread to point out how the Hail Mary is a totally Bible-based prayer.”
Then if it is bible-based, it shouldn’t be found being neglected by other scripture. May we look at a few?

Recall if you will from hell’s torment, Lazarus, in his appropriate request; “Father Abraham” for his five brothers when he recognized as having a disobedient-past yet also having the word of God, was refused.
‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’

(Luke 16:29)
My only question there to consider is that Abraham, who was acting in accordance of God’s will responded more to one than the other; faith or compassion? Faith, as he was also known for wasn’t it? The only specific form of compassion I see being awarded from heaven that can be found detailed as such is from the Mediator himself,
But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus.

(Philippians 4:19)
If our “God” by “Jesus” will be the one supplying our lack from heaven, what Bible bases can be seen adding to that supply, so we aren’t found trifling with an adjustment beyond the canon of scripture?

.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 02-02-2019, 07:00 AM
CatholicCrusader's Avatar
Knight of the Forum
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 9,259
Arrow Re: The "Hail Mary" prayer

Quote:
Originally Posted by pryz View Post
Recall if you will from hell’s torment, Lazarus, in his appropriate request; “Father Abraham” for his five brothers when he recognized as having a disobedient-past yet also having the word of God, was refused.
‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’

(Luke 16:29)
My only question there to consider is that Abraham, who was acting in accordance of God’s will responded more to one than the other; faith or compassion? Faith, as he was also known for wasn’t it? The only specific form of compassion I see being awarded from heaven that can be found detailed as such is from the Mediator himself,
But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus.

(Philippians 4:19)
If our “God” by “Jesus” will be the one supplying our lack from heaven, what Bible bases can be seen adding to that supply, so we aren’t found trifling with an adjustment beyond the canon of scripture?
It is important to note that prior to Jesus, there was no mediator between God and man. It is also important to note here that the rich man is not in Abraham's bosom; he is in a different place called Hades which we must assume is Hell. Once you are in hell, you are through. The time for requests for mercy is over. Abraham was not the mediator between man and God, and since there was no mediator between man and God and man, who was Abraham to ask for mercy for the five brothers? The mediators were the priests and their sacrifices.

Now, we have Jesus as the mediator between God and man, and as you point out, our “God” by “Jesus” will be the one supplying our lack from heaven. So if a saint in heaven prays on our behalf (intercessory prayer 1 Tim 2:1, 2 Cor 1:11, Eph 6:18) they pray to Jesus, who mediates to God.

I cannot stress enough that you must keep in mind the Biblical foundation of Intercessory Prayer. It is established beyond a shadow of a doubt that we can pray for each other. So if I pray for you, here is what happens:

I pray to Jesus for you, Jesus mediates to God, and God answers in a manner that is his will.

Now lets add in an extra element, YOU asking me to pray for you:

You ask me to pray for you, I pray to Jesus for you, Jesus mediates to God, and God answers in a manner that is his will.

All Christians are good with that. And there it is. It is no different than you asking Mary to pray for you:

You ask Mary to pray for you, Mary prays to Jesus for you, Jesus mediates to God, and God answers in a manner that is his will.

It is the exact same thing. And thanks to your scripture quote about Lazarus, you proved for me already that people hear and are aware and are alive after death (thank you for the assist).

Let us re-cap, and think about this real hard:

You agree with this: You ask me to pray for you, I pray to Jesus for you, Jesus mediates to God, and God answers in a manner that is his will.
You do not agree with this: You ask Mary to pray for you, Mary prays to Jesus for you, Jesus mediates to God, and God answers in a manner that is his will.

How can you accept the former and not the latter?


__________________

"God in his deepest mystery is not a solitude but a family, since he has in himself fatherhood, sonship and the essence of the family which is love"
- Saint Pope John Paul II
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 02-02-2019, 07:08 AM
CatholicCrusader's Avatar
Knight of the Forum
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 9,259
Arrow Re: The "Hail Mary" prayer

I found an entirely different response to those verses online. But the concluding points of my previous post are still what is more important:

4 Biblical Proofs for Prayers to Saints and for the Dead

A) The rich man in Jesus’ story (known in tradition as “Dives”) asks Abraham to intercede, making two requests: a) relief from his suffering in the “bad” part of Hades / Sheol (Lk 16:24), and 2) to send Lazarus to earth to warn his five brothers to repent, so as not to end up in the same place and state (Lk 16:27-28). In Luke 16:27 in the King James Version has him even using the words, “I pray thee.”

B) Whether this is a parable or not (many Protestant commentators say it is not, because parables don’t include proper names), Jesus couldn’t possibly teach doctrinal error by means of the story.

C) Abraham’s refusal to answer the prayer does not prove that he shouldn’t have been prayed to in the first place. Prayers can be refused. He never said, “You can’t pray to me!!!!! Pray only to God!”

D) Nor does his refusal prove that he lacks the power to fulfill the prayer (ultimately due to God’s power, of course). He said no in the first instances, because Dives’ punishment in the afterlife was already determined by God. He refused in the second instance because the “proposal” wasn’t going to work, anyway. He didn’t say, “I don’t have the power to send Lazarus and it’s blasphemous for you to think so.” He said, rather, that if he [/i]did[i] send him, it wouldn’t make any difference as to the result Abraham hoped for (Lk 16:21: “If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if some one should rise from the dead” [RSV]).

E) Thus we can only conclude that human beings in the afterlife can be prayed to, and that they have the power (delegated through God, using them as vessels or intermediaries) to fulfill the requests: in other words, exactly what the Catholic communion of saints / invocation of saints holds. And it is straight from our Lord Jesus.

F) Had Abraham fulfilled the request it would also be another instance of permitted communication between those in heaven or the afterlife (in this case, Hades) and those on earth, since the dead Lazarus would have returned to earth, to talk to the five brothers. Protestants tell us this is unbiblical and against God’s will (and is the equivalent of necromancy), yet there it is, right in Scripture, from Jesus.

__________________

"God in his deepest mystery is not a solitude but a family, since he has in himself fatherhood, sonship and the essence of the family which is love"
- Saint Pope John Paul II
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 02-02-2019, 07:52 PM
pryz's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,280
Default Re: The "Hail Mary" prayer

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader View Post
Let us re-cap, and think about this real hard:

You agree with this: You ask me to pray for you, I pray to Jesus for you, Jesus mediates to God, and God answers in a manner that is his will.
You do not agree with this: You ask Mary to pray for you, Mary prays to Jesus for you, Jesus mediates to God, and God answers in a manner that is his will.
No doubt, within most of the use out there concerning intercessory prayer, that is what is being employed, but I cannot agree to this sequence of chronological events as given. For just as it is written to accommodate humankind’s finite or lack of constant ability works another throughout our petitioning who Himself, is not seen being accompanied,
“, , the Spirit also helps our weakness: for we know not
what we should pray for as we ought but the Spirit himself makes
intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered."


(Romans 8:26)
Can anyone say with the utmost confidence that if we do come to the point of wanting intercessory intervention, that we should gladly add another to help the Spirit along? As though adding to this knowledge, being soo utterly providential wasn’t over-bargained enough.

The approach just isn’t lining up from some key text!

.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 02-03-2019, 02:13 PM
CatholicCrusader's Avatar
Knight of the Forum
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 9,259
Default Re: The "Hail Mary" prayer

Okay, then you tell me, in simple language please for I am a simple guy:
If you say to me, "Hey Terry, please pray for me because I am going through a rough spot", and then I pray to you, what do you think happens to my prayer after that? When I pray for you, who hears my prayer? If I pray for you right now, where is my prayer going?

Remember, keep it simple please.

EDIT: Wait, I have a better idea. Here we go:

You asked me to pray for you, so here I go: "Father, in the name of Jesus I pray, please help out pryz because he is going through difficult times. Thy will be done. Amen."

What happens then. Now, whatever your answer is, would you answer be any different if you asked Mary to pray for you and she said, "Merciful Father, please aid thy son pryz in his difficulties. In Jesus name. Amen."

What happens to her prayer after that. (Remember, keep it simple please.)
__________________

"God in his deepest mystery is not a solitude but a family, since he has in himself fatherhood, sonship and the essence of the family which is love"
- Saint Pope John Paul II

Last edited by CatholicCrusader : 02-03-2019 at 02:54 PM.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 02-04-2019, 03:21 AM
pryz's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,280
Default Re: The "Hail Mary" prayer

CC, God bless and thanks! An interesting concentration on simplicity, but simplicity isn’t being slighted here by me, you really think it is?

I have only pointed out a small portion from scripture that your invitation wasn’t lining up with some key text. But if that wasn’t enough, , okay, another one that would counter quite a lot from making petition to saints whom have gone on to be with the Lord is held very much in the height of simplicity. That item would relate to who the Lord said our petitioning should be agreeing with,
“agree on earth”

(Matthew 18:19)
You still wish to maintain it is fine for us to make an addition to how the Son and Father and Spirit from heaven penned that simplicity?

What I’m gathering from you partner is just as I stated in my previous post is just that; the effort to make an addition. While this is underway, it is not (as far as I can tell) supplying my request; What simple scriptural bases leads us to conclude otherwise? I must say, the bases you are providing are not coming in especially strong though I appreciate your effort in reason.

As to your request for a simple answer to my praying to Mary, mother of Christ Jesus, personally, it would be an exercise of my liberty in Christ, remember? “, all things are lawful for me”, but “all things do not profit”. Based upon what I am seeing occur within the framework of scripture, the profitability of praying to Mary or any other saint isn’t being suggested. The suggestion I am talking about is making an appeal or petition to them, not that they are or are not in heaven.

Honestly, can you point out a strong or weak bases from the text that remarks on – the godly making appeal in such a way? As close as you can get what I believe is John, in Revelation and I don’t think he did specifically there either. So, not only am I witnessing an absence of profitability but also of NT living-saint-to-past-saint occurrence?

But back to your request on what happens to our prayers, yes, this we know beyond a shadow of doubt,
And the smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of
the saints, rose up before God from the hand of the angel.


(Revelation 8:4)
When scripture wishes to include simplicity, you are right, it is the preferred understanding and God knows we need that to conclude. Sorry but this tradition isn't providing ample support from the text.

.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 02-04-2019, 05:58 AM
CatholicCrusader's Avatar
Knight of the Forum
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 9,259
Arrow Re: The "Hail Mary" prayer

Quote:
Originally Posted by pryz View Post
“agree on earth”

(Matthew 18:19)
In short: You have taken that out of context and are dealing with apples and oranges here.

The "binding and loosing" verses in Matthew 18 and Matthew 16 have to do with apostolic authority in the Church here on earth. Those have nothing to do with "intercessory" prayer. Those are more of a matter of settling a doctrinal dispute or as disagreement among the brethren. They are not even prayers in fact.

The Lord's Prayer (Matthew 6:9-13) is a better model for a prayer of petition to God: "Thy will be done". And as I mentioned before, Paul says that Christians should interceed for each other: "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:1–4).

More to come.....
__________________

"God in his deepest mystery is not a solitude but a family, since he has in himself fatherhood, sonship and the essence of the family which is love"
- Saint Pope John Paul II
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 02-04-2019, 03:54 PM
pryz's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,280
Default Re: The "Hail Mary" prayer

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader View Post
In short: You have taken that out of context and are dealing with apples and oranges here.

The "binding and loosing" verses in Matthew 18 and Matthew 16 have to do with apostolic authority in the Church here on earth. Those have nothing to do with "intercessory" prayer. Those are more of a matter of settling a doctrinal dispute or as disagreement among the brethren. They are not even prayers in fact.
(Matthew 18:19)

ask for,
αἰτήσωνται (aitēsōntai)
Strong's Greek 154: To ask, request, petition, demand.


I don’t doubt that which you state might take part, but I don’t see those things spoken on earth being received from heaven are held solitarily to temporal things.

As for the appointed office, I agree, just as the final Apostle said “And last of all He appeared to me” (1 Cor 15:8)

We could go on but why invest in futility? I mean, I'm listening but you are real shrewd on the select option when I weigh-in.

“Binding and loosing”? Sure, I accept that precept within the confines of related scripture. For if I don’t, I become thick and hard of hearing wanting instead to forward the word of God “out of” man (1Cor 14:36) instead of the humility of receiving it soundly by faith.

Is this why you wish to hear ‘simplicity’ when the word of faith directs us differently and then rise up with insightfulness when the hearing is low?

“Simple guy”?

I agreed to your insight, where’s mine?

.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
The "Hail Mary" prayer CatholicCrusader General Discussions 78 06-02-2014 04:02 AM
Are Protestants ALLOWED to invoke Jesus as "Son of God and Son of Mary"? AHJE Theology 18 12-30-2013 10:08 AM
Orthodox Rabbi Reveals Name of Messiah "JESUS","Yehoshua" or "Yeshua"(Hebrew) Moses Bible Chat 12 02-29-2012 02:36 PM
Celine Dion "Hail Mary" CatholicCrusader General Discussions 1 11-30-2010 07:43 AM
"Cenacle, invocation to the Holy Spirit with Mary, in fraternal communion." Moses Theology 7 06-22-2010 05:59 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:55 PM.


true2ourselves
 
 
 

Flashcoms

You need to upgrade your Flash Player.

Version 8 or higher is required.

download from http://www.adobe.com/go/getflashplayer

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29