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  #1  
Old 06-18-2016, 09:19 PM
CatholicCrusader's Avatar
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Arrow Graven Images

The commandment about “graven images” is one of the most misunderstood scriptures. Consider Exodus 25: 18-19: “And make two cherubim out of hammered gold at the ends of the cover. Make one cherub on one end and the second cherub on the other; make the cherubim of one piece with the cover, at the two ends.” Here, God is commanding that images be made!

So is God contradicting himself? First he says don’t make a graven image, and then he orders graven images to be made? No, he is not contradicting himself. The problem is that folks have misinterpreted the words “graven image.”

According to Strong’s Concordance, the original Hebrew words that were translated into “graven image” referred to idols (Here is the concordance link: Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon ). Of course, we know that an idol is a false god, or something that you place above God. Since the Cheribum are not false Gods, there is no contradiction.

Therefore, statues in Catholic Churches are not a violation of the commandment either. They are not idols, because they are not false Gods. My Church has a statue of an angel, just like God commanded the Israelites to make. We have a statue of Jesus, who is CERTAINLY not a false God. We have statues of saints because they are heroes of the faith, not gods - just like America has statues of its heroes – Washington, Lincoln, etc. – and those are not idols either.

Bottom line: The commandments forbid images of false idols or false gods, but there is nothing wrong with beautiful artwork of Jesus, Mary, or angels, whether that artwork be paintings, statues, or whatever.
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  #2  
Old 06-19-2016, 06:02 AM
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Default Re: Graven Images

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader View Post
Bottom line: The commandments forbid images of false idols or false gods, but there is nothing wrong with beautiful artwork of Jesus, Mary, or angels, whether that artwork be paintings, statues, or whatever.
Nice, I like the cherubim ease of application! I personally had a time of difficulty over this early on in the faith.

Now, I consider the current reserves of beauty delivered to the Church from small to great the world over a massive blessing, but wonder; what are the possibilities of inspiration to minister to soul and spirit of her congregants by visual arts? From a designer’s perspective I wonder, even after all the toil and sacrifice, have we truly glorified God with an arduous offering, or is there not a task, a software to inundate to its peak profits of meditation?

Mike.
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  #3  
Old 06-19-2016, 07:59 AM
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Arrow Re: Graven Images

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Originally Posted by pryz View Post
Nice, I like the cherubim ease of application!......
Thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pryz View Post
......I personally had a time of difficulty over this early on in the faith........
I never did, but that's probably because I was raised Catholic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pryz View Post
....Now, I consider the current reserves of beauty delivered to the Church from small to great the world over a massive blessing, but wonder; what are the possibilities of inspiration to minister to soul and spirit of her congregants by visual arts?.......
Well, in Medieval times imagery was important because generally people could not read. But a mother could point at a statue or stained glass and say, "See? That's Jesus, and that's Mary." I suppose for small children the same goes today. As for me personally, I like looking at them when I pray because it helps me focus.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pryz View Post
....From a designer’s perspective I wonder, even after all the toil and sacrifice, have we truly glorified God with an arduous offering, or is there not a task, a software to inundate to its peak profits of meditation?
Oh, who can say. Some artists have it in their hearts, like Michaelangelo. I suppose others do it for money. But its also true that some so-called "preachers" are in preaching for the money too, so what can you do.

EDIT: Ooops, I misread your post when I saw "profits." I think there is software out there. I know there is an online Rosary with nice music I have seen before
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Last edited by CatholicCrusader : 06-19-2016 at 08:02 AM.
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  #4  
Old 06-19-2016, 11:02 PM
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Default Re: Graven Images

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader View Post
The commandment about “graven images” is one of the most misunderstood scriptures. Consider Exodus 25: 18-19: “And make two cherubim out of hammered gold at the ends of the cover. Make one cherub on one end and the second cherub on the other; make the cherubim of one piece with the cover, at the two ends.” Here, God is commanding that images be made!

So is God contradicting himself? First he says don’t make a graven image, and then he orders graven images to be made? No, he is not contradicting himself. The problem is that folks have misinterpreted the words “graven image.”

According to Strong’s Concordance, the original Hebrew words that were translated into “graven image” referred to idols (Here is the concordance link: Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon ). Of course, we know that an idol is a false god, or something that you place above God. Since the Cheribum are not false Gods, there is no contradiction.

Therefore, statues in Catholic Churches are not a violation of the commandment either. They are not idols, because they are not false Gods. My Church has a statue of an angel, just like God commanded the Israelites to make. We have a statue of Jesus, who is CERTAINLY not a false God. We have statues of saints because they are heroes of the faith, not gods - just like America has statues of its heroes – Washington, Lincoln, etc. – and those are not idols either.

Bottom line: The commandments forbid images of false idols or false gods, but there is nothing wrong with beautiful artwork of Jesus, Mary, or angels, whether that artwork be paintings, statues, or whatever.
.

When this event took place what was the reason Jesus didn't have any money on Himself?
What was their wickedness, how were they tempting Jesus, and why were they hypocrites?

Mat 22:17-21
17) Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not?
18) But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites?
19) Shew me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny.
20) And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription?
21) They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.

JIM

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Old 06-20-2016, 06:31 AM
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Arrow Re: Graven Images

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lookinforacity View Post
When this event took place what was the reason Jesus didn't have any money on Himself?
What was their wickedness, how were they tempting Jesus, and why were they hypocrites?

Mat 22:17-21
17) Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not?
18) But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites?
19) Shew me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny.
20) And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription?
21) They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.

Okay, I'll bite:

I assume you are thinking that the reason Jesus didn't have any money on Himself was because of the image of Caesar? If you are correct (and that's a big IF) then that would still be totally in line with my first post because the Caesars claimed to be gods and the Roman people had to burn incense to the Caesars as gods.

As I stated: "According to Strong’s Concordance, the original Hebrew words that were translated into “graven image” referred to idols.... ....Of course, we know that an idol is a false god, or something that you place above God. Since the Cheribum are not false Gods, there is no contradiction."

There is no contradiction whatsoever between your theory and my post.
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  #6  
Old 06-20-2016, 12:57 PM
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Default Re: Graven Images

In Exodus (and Deuternomy) there are actually 12 commandments (you shall/shall not). To make ten some have to be conflated.

If we take the first three:
Ex 20
3 "You shall have no other gods before me.
4 "You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;
5 you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.

Catholics (& Lutherans) conflate all the above into one commandment.

Protestants (except Lutherans) and Orthodox split them into two – verse 3 and verses 4-6. This I think artificially separates out the making of images from the not having other gods.

The Jews regard verses 3-6 as one commandment.
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Old 11-14-2018, 09:12 AM
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Default Re: Graven Images

Quote:
Originally Posted by winsome View Post
In Exodus (and Deuternomy) there are actually 12 commandments (you shall/shall not). To make ten some have to be conflated.

If we take the first three:
Ex 20
3 "You shall have no other gods before me.
4 "You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;
5 you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.

Catholics (& Lutherans) conflate all the above into one commandment.

Protestants (except Lutherans) and Orthodox split them into two – verse 3 and verses 4-6. This I think artificially separates out the making of images from the not having other gods.

The Jews regard verses 3-6 as one commandment.
Also,as I said in the first post, the original Hebrew words that were translated into “graven image” referred to "idols". Thats important
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- Saint Pope John Paul II
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