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True2Ourselves Forums   > Community Topics > Bible Chat  > Is Matthew Is Matthew 12:40 Using Common Idiomatic Language?

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  #11  
Old 06-29-2016, 05:15 PM
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Arrow Re: Is Matthew Is Matthew 12:40 Using Common Idiomatic Language?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rstrats View Post
It appears that there are no 6th day of the week crucifixion advocates who frequent this forum...........
That's a good thing.
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Old 08-14-2016, 07:14 AM
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Default Re: Is Matthew Is Matthew 12:40 Using Common Idiomatic Language?

Since it's been awhile, pehaps someone new looking in who thinks that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week and who tries to explain the missing night time by saying that the verse is employing common Jewish idiomatic language, will know of examples.
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Old 12-11-2016, 08:21 AM
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Default Re: Is Matthew Is Matthew 12:40 Using Common Idiomatic Language?

CatholicCrusader,
re: "Father Linsinbigler has addressed this issue so many times that I lost count long ago."

I don't see where your Linsinbigler quote shows examples to support a common usage assertion that a daytime or a night time was forecast to be involved with an event when no part of the daytime or no part of the night time could have occurred.
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Old 02-18-2017, 08:01 AM
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Default Re: Is Matthew Is Matthew 12:40 Using Common Idiomatic Language?

With another new year, maybe someone new looking in will know of examples as requested in the OP and clarified in further posts. And again, remember that the purpose of this topic is not to discuss how long the Messiah was in the heart of the earth. As stated, there are other topics that do that. However, there are some who say that Matthew 12:40 is using common Jewish idiomatic language to try to explain the missing 3rd night, which would have to be the case with a 6th day of the week crucifixion/1st day of the week resurrection. But in order to legitimately say that it was employing common, idiomatic/figure of speech/colloquial language, one would have to know of other instances where a daytime or a night time was predicted to be involved with an event when no part of the daytime or no part of the night time could occur. I am simply looking for some of those instances, scriptural or otherwise.
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Old 02-19-2017, 10:25 AM
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Default Re: Is Matthew Is Matthew 12:40 Using Common Idiomatic Language?

Companion Bible
Appendix #144
THE "THREE DAYS" AND "THREE NIGHTS"
OF
MATT Mat 12:40.
The fact that "three days" is used by Hebrew idiom for any part of three days and three nights is not disputed; because that was the common way of reckoning, just as it was when used of years. Three or any number of years was used inclusively of any part of those years was used inclusively of any part of those years, as may be seen in the reckoning of the reigns of any of the kings of Israel or Judah. But, when the number of "nights" is stated as well as the number of "days", then the expression ceases to be an idiom, and becomes a literal statement of fact.

Moreover, as the Hebrew day began at sunset the day was reckoned from one sunset to another, the "twelve hours in the day" (Joh 11:9) being reckoned from sunrise, and the twelve hours of the night from sunset. An evening-morning was thus used for a whole day of twenty-four hours, as in the first chapter of Genesis. Hence the expression "a night and a day" in 2Co 11:25 denotes a complete day (Gr. Nuchthemeron).

When Esther says (Est 4:16) "fast ye for me, and neither eat nor drink three days", she defines her meaning as being three complete days, because she adds (being a Jewess) "night or day". And when it is written that the fast ended on "the third day" (Mat 5:1), "the third day" must have succeeded and included the third night.

In like manner the sacred record states that the young man (in 1Sa 30:12) "had eaten no bread, nor drunk any water, three days and three nights". Hence, when the young man explains the reason, he says, "because three days agone I fell sick". He means therefore three complete days and nights, because, being an Egyptian (vv. 11, 13) he naturally reckoned his day as beginning at sunrise according to the Egyptian manner (see Encycl. Brit., 11th (Cambridge) ed., vol. xi. p. 77). His "three days agone" refers to the beginning of his sickness and includes the whole period, giving the reason for his having gone without food during the whole period stated.

Hence, when it says that "Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights" (Jon 1:17) it means exactly what it says, and that this can be the only meaning of the expression in Mat 12:40; 16:4. Luk 11:30, is shown in Ap. 156.

In the expression, "the heart of the earth" (Mat 12:40), the meaning is the same as "the heart of the sea", "heart" being put by the Fig. Metonymy (of the Subject), Ap. 6 for "the midst", and is frequently so translated. See Psa 46:2. Jer 51:1. Eze 27:4, 25, 26, 27; 28:2. It is used of ships when sailing "in the heart of the seas", i.e. in or on the sea. See Eze 27:25, 26; 28:8; also of people dwelling in the heart of the seas, i.e. on islands (Eze 28:2). Jonah uses the Heb. beten (= womb) in the same way (2.2).





............................................................ ..............................................

Companion Bible
Appendix #156
"SIX DAYS BEFORE THE PASSOVER"
(Joh 12:1)
We are furnished by Scripture with certain facts and fixed points which, taken together, enable us (1) to determine the events which filled up the days of "the last week" of our Lord's life on earth; (2) to fix the day of His crucifixion; and (3) to ascertain the duration of the time He remained in the tomb. The difficulties connected with these three have arisen (1) from not having noted these fixed points; (2) from the fact of Gentiles' not having been conversant with the law concerning the three great feasts of the LORD; and (3) from not having reckoned the days as commencing (some six hours before our own) and running from sunset to sunset, instead of from midnight to midnight.
To remove these difficulties, we must note:
1.
That the first day of each of the three feasts, Passover, Pentecost, and Tabernacles, was "a holy convocation", a "sabbath" on which no servile work was to be done. See Lev 23:7, 24, 35. Cp. Exo 12:16. "That Sabbath" and the "high day" of Joh 19:31, was the "holy convocation", the first day of the feast, which quite overshadowed the ordinary weekly sabbath.
It was called by the Jews Yom tov (= Good day), and this is the greeting on that day throughout Jewry down to the present time.
This great sabbath, having been mistaken from the earliest times for the weekly sabbath, has led to all the confusion.
2.
This has naturally caused the further difficulty as to the Lord's statement that "even as Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights, so shall the Son of man be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights" (Mat 12:40). Now, while it is quite correct to speak according to Hebrew idiom of "three days" or "three years", while they are only parts of three days or three years, yet that idiom does not apply in a case like this, where "three nights" are mentioned in addition to "three days". It will be noted that the Lord not only definitely states this, but repeats the full phraseology, so that we may not mistake it. See the subject fully discussed in Ap. 144.
3.
We have therefore the following facts furnished for our sure guidance:
1.
The "high day" of Joh 19:31 was the first day of the feast.
2.
The "first day of the feast" was on the 15th day of Nisan.
3.
The 15th day of Nisan, commenced at sunset on what we should call the 14th.
4.
"Six days before the passover" (Joh 12:1) takes us back to the 9th day of Nisan.
5.
"After two days is the passover" (Mat 26:2. Mar 14:1) takes us to the 13th day of Nisan.
6.
"The first day of the week", the day of the resurrection (Mat 28:1, &c.), was from our Saturday sunset to our Sunday sunset. This fixes the days of the week, just as the above fix the days of the month, for:
7.
Reckoning back from this, "three days and three nights" (Mat 12:40), we arrive at the day of the burial, which must have been before sunset, on the 14th of Nisan; i.e. before our Wednesday sunset.
8.
This makes the sixth day before the passover (the 9th day of Nisan) to be our Thursday sunset to Friday sunset.
Therefore Wednesday, Nisan 14th (commencing on the Tuesday at sunset), was "the preparation day", on which the crucifixion took place: for all four Gospels definitely say that this was the day on which the Lord was buried (before our Wednesday sunset), "because it was the preparation [day]" the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, "for that sabbath day was a high day", and, therefore, not the ordinary seventh day, or weekly sabbath. See Joh 19:31
4.
It follows, therefore, that the Lord being crucified on "the preparation day" could not have eaten of the Passover lamb, which was not slain until the evening of the 14th of Nisan (i.e. afternoon). On that day the daily sacrifice was killed at the 6th hour (noon) and offered about the 7th hour (1 p.m.). The killing of the Passover lambs began directly afterwards. Thus it is clear, that if the killing of the Passover lambs did not commence until about four hours after our Lord had been hanging upon the Cross, and would not have been concluded at the ninth hour (3 p.m.) when "He gave up the ghost;" no "Passover lamb" could have been eaten at the "last supper" on the previous evening.
5.
With these facts before us, we are now in a position to fill in the several days of the Lord's last week with the events recorded in the Gospels. By noting that the Lord returned to Bethany (or to the Mount of Olives) each night of that week, we are able to determine both the several days and the events that took place in them.
THE SIXTH DAY BEFORE THE PASSOVER,
THE 9TH DAY OF NISAN.
(Our Thursday sunset to Friday sunset)

MATTHEW.
MARK.
LUKE.
JOHN.
The Lord approaches Jerusalem from Jericho


Luk 19:1-10

He passes our Thursday night at the house of Zacchaeus


Luk 19:5

And delivers the Parable of the Pounds


Luk 19:11-27

He proceeds toward Jerusalem


Luk 19:28

He sends two disciples (apenanti) for an "***" and a "colt" (two animals)
Mat 21:1-7



And makes His first entry from Bethphage (not Bethany) (Ap. 153)
Mat 21:8, 9



He is unexpected, and they ask "Who is this? "
Mat 21:10, 11



He cleanses the Temple
Mat 21:12-16



He returns to Bethany
Mat 21:17


Joh 12:1

THE FIFTH DAY BEFORE THE PASSOVER,
THE 10TH DAY OF NISAN.
(Our Friday sunset to Saturday sunset.)
The Lord passes the Sabbath at Bethany; and after sunset (on our Saturday), the first of three suppers was made, probably at the house of Lazarus, in Bethany (Ap. 157)
.............
..............
.................
Joh 12:2
At this supper the first of two anointings took place (Ap. 158)



Joh 12:3-11

THE FOURTH DAY BEFORE THE PASSOVER,
THE 11TH DAY OF NISAN.
(Our Saturday sunset to Sunday sunset),
the Gentile "Palm Sunday".
The second, or triumphal entry into Jerusalem. He sends two disciples (katenanti) for a colt (one animal). See Ap. 153
...............
Mar 11:1-7
Luk 19:29-35
Joh 12:12-
The Lord starts from Bethany (not Bethphage) and is met by multitudes from Jerusalem (Ap. 153).

Mar 11:8-10
Luk 19:36-40
Joh 12:12-19
He weeps over the city.


Luk 19:41-44

He enters the Temple, looks around.

Mar 11:11-


And Returns to Bethany.

Mar 11:11



THE THIRD DAY BEFORE THE PASSOVER,
THE 12TH DAY OF NISAN
(Our Sunday sunset to Monday sunset).
In the morning (our Monday a.m.) the Lord returns to Jerusalem.
Mat 21:18
Mar 11:12


The Fig-tree cursed.
Mat 21:19-22
Mar 11:13, 14


The Temple. Further cleansing.

Mar 11:15-17
Luk 19:45, 46

In the Temple. Further teaching. "Certain Greeks".


Luk 19:47-
Joh 12:20-50
Opposition of Rulers.

Mar 11:18
Luk 19:47, 48

He goes out of the city (probably to Bethany; see Luk 21:37, 38, below).

Mar 11:19



THE SECOND DAY BEFORE THE PASSOVER,
THE 13TH DAY OF NISAN.
(Our Monday sunset to Tuesday sunset).
In the morning (our Tuesday a.m.) on the way to Jerusalem, the question of the disciples about the Fig Tree.

Mar 11:20-26

.............
In Jerusalem again; and in the Temple.
Mat 21:23-27
Mar 11:27-33
Luk 20:1-8

In Jerusalem teaching in Parables; and questions.
Mat 21:28-23:39
Mar 12:1-44
Luk 20:9-21:4

The first great prophecy, in the Temple (Ap. 155).


Luk 21:5-36

(Parenthetical statement as to the Lord's custom during this week).


Luk 21:37, 38

The second great prophecy, on the Mount of Olives.
Mat 24:1-51
Mar 13:1-37


The second great prophecy, continued (Ap. 155).
Mat 25:1-46



"After two days is the Passover".
Mat 26:1-5
Mar 14:1, 2


He returns to Bethany, and is present at the second supper in the house of Simon the leper. The second Anointing. See Ap. 157 and 158.
Mat 26:6-13
Mar 14:3-9



THE DAY BEFORE THE PASSOVER THE 14TH DAY OF NISAN
"THE PREPARATION DAY" THE DAY OF THE CRUCIFIXION.
(Our Tuesday sunset to Wednesday sunset).
The plot of Judas Iscariot to betray the Lord.
Mat 26:14-16
Mar 14:10, 11
Luk 22:1-6

The "preparation" for the last supper (*1).
Mat 26:17-19
Mar 14:12-16
Luk 22:7-13

"The even was come" (our Tuesday after sunset) when the plot for the betrayal was ripe for execution.
Mat 26:20
Mar 14:17


The last supper, commencing with the washing of the feet.



Joh 13:1-20
The announcement of the betrayal, &c.
Mat 26:21-25
Mar 14:18-21

Joh 13:21-30
The supper eaten, the "New Covenant" made (Jer 31:31). The lamb abolished, bread and wine substituted.
Mat 26:26-29
Mar 14:22-25
Luk 22:14-23

The first prophecy of Peter's denials (Ap. 160).



Joh 13:31-38
The strife; who should be the greatest, &c.


Luk 22:24-30

The second prophecy of Peter's denials (Ap. 160).


Luk 22:31-34

The final appeal to His first commission (Luk 9:3).


Luk 22:35-38

The last discourse to the eleven, followed by His prayer.



Joh 14:1-17:26
They go to Gethsemane.
Mat 26:30-35
Mar 14:26-29
Luk 22:39
Joh 18:1
The third prophecy of Peter's denials (Ap. 160).

Mar 14:30, 31


The agony in the garden.
Mat 26:36-46
Mar 14:32-42
Luk 22:40-46

The apprehension of the Lord (Ap. 165).
Mat 26:47-56
Mar 14:43-50
Luk 22:47-54
Joh 18:2-11
The escape of Lazarus (see notes on Mar 14:51, 52).

Mar 14:51, 52


The trials: continued throughout our Tuesday night.
Mat 26:57-27:31
Mar 14:53-15:19
Luk 22:54-23:25
Joh 18:12-19:13
About the sixth hour (our Tuesday midnight) Pilate said "Behold your King".



Joh 19:14, 15
Led away to be crucified.
Mat 27:31-34
Mar 15:20-23
Luk 23:26-31
Joh 19:16, 17
And "led with Him" two "malefactors" (kakourgoi) (Ap. 164).


Luk 23:32, 33
Joh 19:18
Discussion with Pilate about the Inscriptions (Ap. 168).



Joh 19:19-22
The dividing of the garments.
Mat 27:35-37
Mar 15:24
Luk 23:34
Joh 19:23, 24
"It was the third hour, and they crucified Him" (our 9 a.m. Wednesday).

Mar 15:25, 26


"Then were there two robbers" (lestai) crucified with Him" (Ap. 164).
Mat 27:38
Mar 15:27, 28


The revilings of the rulers, both "robbers", and one "malefactor".
Mat 27:39-44
Mar 15:29-32
Luk 23:35-43

The Lord's mother and John.



Joh 19:25, 27
"The sixth hour" (our Wednesday noon) and the darkness (Ap. 165).
Mat 27:45-49
Mar 15:33
Luk 23:44, 45

"The ninth hour" (our Wednesday 3 p.m.) and the expiring cry (Ap. 165).
Mat 27:50
Mar 15:34-37
Luk 23:46
Joh 19:28-30
Subsequent events
Mat 27:51-56
Mar 15:38-41
Luk 23:47-49
Joh 19:31-37
Buried in haste before sunset (our Wednesday about 6 p.m.), before the "high day" (the first day of the Feast began), our Wednesday sunset.
Mat 27:57-66
Mar 15:42-47
Luk 23:50-56
Joh 19:38-42

"THE FIRST DAY OF THE FEAST" - "THE HIGH DAY" (Yom tov) - THE 15TH DAY OF NISAN.
(Our Wednesday sunset to Thursday sunset.)
THE FIRST NIGHT AND FIRST DAY IN THE TOMB.
THE SECOND DAY OF THE FEAST - THE 16TH DAY OF NISAN.
(Our Thursday sunset to Friday sunset.)
THE SECOND NIGHT AND SECOND DAY IN THE TOMB.
THE THIRD DAY OF THE FEAST - "THE (WEEKLY) SABBATH" - THE 17TH DAY OF NISAN
(Our Friday sunset to Saturday sunset.)
THE THIRD NIGHT AND THIRD DAY IN THE TOMB.
"THE FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK" - THE 18TH DAY OF NISAN
(Our Saturday sunset: "the third day" of Mat 16:21, &c.; not the third day of the Feast.)
Thus the Resurrection of the Lord took place at our Saturday sunset or thereabouts on "the third day"; cp. "after three days" (Mat 27:63. Mar 8:31.).
Mat 28:1-10
Mar 16:1-18
Luk 24:1-49
Joh 20:1-23

[For the sequence of events connected with and following the Resurrection, see Ap. 166.] It will be seen from the above that we have neither power nor authority to alter or shift any day or date; or to change the order or position of any of the events recorded in the Holy Writ. Each day is marked by a return to Bethany during the last week (up to the Preparation Day); and each day is filled with the recorded events.
It follows, therefore, that the Lord was crucified on our Wednesday; was buried on that day before sunset; and remained "three days and three nights" in the tomb, as foretold by Him in Mat 12:40; rising from the dead on "the third day", "the first day of the week". The fixed days and dates, at either end, hold the whole period as in a vice, and place the whole subject on a sure foundation.

(*1) The words in Mar 14:12 and Luk 22:7 refer to "the first day of unleavened bread", which was the 14th day of Nisan, and therefore "the preparation day". That is why the Lord goes on to tell the two disciples to go and make preparation for the Passover.
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  #16  
Old 02-19-2017, 11:07 AM
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Default Re: Is Matthew Is Matthew 12:40 Using Common Idiomatic Language?

Wow! That's a lot of words.
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Old 02-19-2017, 11:34 AM
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Default Re: Is Matthew Is Matthew 12:40 Using Common Idiomatic Language?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulheart3 View Post
Wow! That's a lot of words.
LOL, I sure am glad it is copy and paste..
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Old 02-19-2017, 01:31 PM
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Default Re: Is Matthew Is Matthew 12:40 Using Common Idiomatic Language?

Soulheart3,
re: "Wow, That's a lot of words."

Indeed. Unfortunately none of them are responsive to the OP.
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Old 02-19-2017, 04:45 PM
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Default Re: Is Matthew Is Matthew 12:40 Using Common Idiomatic Language?

.

Ok lets try this one last time.

Matthew 12:40
So shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart
of the earth.


That Christ means himself by the "son of man", there is no reason to doubt; and his being laid in a tomb, dug out of a rock, is sufficient to answer this phrase, "the heart of the earth", in distinction from the surface of it; but some difficulty arises about the time of his continuing there, and the prediction here made agreeable to the type:

For it was on the sixth day of the week, we commonly call "Friday", towards the close, on the day of the preparation for the sabbath, and when the sabbath drew on, that the body of Christ was laid in the sepulchre; where it lay all the next day, which was the sabbath of the Jews, and what we commonly call "Saturday"; and early on the first of the week, usually called "Sunday", or the Lord's day, he rose from the dead; so that he was but one whole day, and part of two, in the grave.

To solve this difficulty, and set the matter in a clear light, let it be observed, that the three days and three nights, mean three natural days, consisting of day and night, or twenty four hours, and are what the Greeks call (nucyhmera) , "night days";

But the Jews have no other way of expressing them, but as here; and with them it is a well known rule, and used on all occasions, as in the computation of their feasts and times of mourning, in the observance of the passover, circumcision, and divers purifications, that (wlwkk Mwyh tuqm) , "a part of a day is as the whole" F14:

And so, whatever was done before sun setting, or after, if but an hour, or ever so small a time, before or after it, it was reckoned as the whole preceding, or following day;

And whether this was in the night part, or day part of the night day, or natural day, it mattered not, it was accounted as the whole night day:

By this rule, the case here is easily adjusted;

Christ was laid in the grave towards the close of the sixth day, a little before sun setting, and this being a part of the night day preceding, is reckoned as the whole;

He continued there the whole night day following, being the seventh day;

And rose again early on the first day, which being after sun setting, though it might be even before sun rising, yet being a part of the night day following, is to be esteemed as the whole;

And thus the son of man was to be, and was three days and three nights in the grave; and which was very easy to be understood by the Jews ..........John Gill commentary

JIM

Last edited by Lookinforacity : 02-20-2017 at 07:20 PM.
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Old 02-19-2017, 05:11 PM
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Default Re: Is Matthew Is Matthew 12:40 Using Common Idiomatic Language?

Hi Jim, I think what he wants is.. from op

Quote:
I wonder if anyone (who thinks that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week and who thinks that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb) knows of any writing which shows a phrase from the first century or before which states a specific number of daytimes and/or a specific number of night times when the actual period of time absolutely couldn't have included at least a portion of each one of the specific number of daytimes and at least a portion of each one of the specific number of night times?
Obviously, with what we and others supplied, including the the day by day references it seems hard to believe there will be any way to find something other than we are posting, so I am not sure what or why he seeks..


Dan
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