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Giuliano 02-08-2014 05:13 PM

Translation Problems?
 
I think there must be some translation problems in these verses. I feel confident there is, what do you think? Here are three versions.

KJV:

Genesis 4:26 And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the Lord.

Exodus 6:3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name Jehovah was I not known to them.

DRA:

Genesis 4:26 But to Seth also was born a son, whom he called Enos; this man began to call upon the name of the Lord.

Exodus 6:33 That appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, by the name of God Almighty; and my name ADONAI I did not shew them.

YLT:

Genesis 4:26 And to Seth, to him also a son hath been born, and he calleth his name Enos; then a beginning was made of preaching in the name of Jehovah.

Exodus 6:3 and I appear unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, as God Almighty; as to My name Jehovah, I have not been known to them;

Giuliano 02-09-2014 08:07 AM

Re: Translation Problems?
 
I did some research on the passage from Genesis. It does indeed appear mistranslated, but it still doesn't solve the problem. It should not read, "then began men to call upon the name of the LORD."

Name (shem in Hebrew) has a l- prefix. That may be translated "to", "by" or "for". There are two words which are translated as "began." There is a word "began" in there, but the second word means "rebel."

"Then began men to rebel and call by the name of the LORD" is one possibility and that is what Rabba Genesis 23:6-7 says of it -- meaning that the Holy Name was known but they began to call idols by it.
Four things changed in the days of Enosh: The mountains became [barren] rocks, the dead began to feel [the worms], men's faces became ape-like, and they became vulnerable to demons, [for they argued]: What is the difference whether one prostrates himself before an image or prostrates himself before man? Hence, Then man became degraded to call upon the name of the LORD.

R. Simon said: In three places this term is used in the sense of rebellion [against God]: then they rebelled (huhal) to call upon hte name of the LORD; And it came to pass, when man rebelled (hehel, E.V. 'began') in multiplying on the face of the earth (Gen. VI,1); He [Nimrod] rebelled (hehel, E.V. 'began') when he was a mighty one in the earth (ib. X, 8).
Thus men were profaning the Name of God, not calling to Him out of reverence. This seems to fit in much better with the rest of Genesis since we are told the imagination of man became wicked. They were calling idols and perhaps fallen angels "by" the Holy Name.

This also explains why the pagans had gods with names similar to the Jewish God, does it not? There was Jove, Io, etc. Some scholars have theorized that the Jews adopted their name from their pagan neighbors; but this section of Genesis informs us that the Name had been known and abused before the Flood even.

Soulheart3 02-09-2014 08:58 AM

Re: Translation Problems?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Giuliano (Post 175296)
I did some research on the passage from Genesis. It does indeed appear mistranslated, but it still doesn't solve the problem. It should not read, "then began men to call upon the name of the LORD."

Name (shem in Hebrew) has a l- prefix. That may be translated "to", "by" or "for". There are two words which are translated as "began." There is a word "began" in there, but the second word means "rebel."

"Then began men to rebel and call by the name of the LORD" is one possibility and that is what Rabba Genesis 23:6-7 says of it -- meaning that the Holy Name was known but they began to call idols by it.
Four things changed in the days of Enosh: The mountains became [barren] rocks, the dead began to feel [the worms], men's faces became ape-like, and they became vulnerable to demons, [for they argued]: What is the difference whether one prostrates himself before an image or prostrates himself before man? Hence, Then man became degraded to call upon the name of the LORD.

R. Simon said: In three places this term is used in the sense of rebellion [against God]: then they rebelled (huhal) to call upon hte name of the LORD; And it came to pass, when man rebelled (hehel, E.V. 'began') in multiplying on the face of the earth (Gen. VI,1); He [Nimrod] rebelled (hehel, E.V. 'began') when he was a mighty one in the earth (ib. X, 8).
Thus men were profaning the Name of God, not calling to Him out of reverence. This seems to fit in much better with the rest of Genesis since we are told the imagination of man became wicked. They were calling idols and perhaps fallen angels "by" the Holy Name.

This also explains why the pagans had gods with names similar to the Jewish God, does it not? There was Jove, Io, etc. Some scholars have theorized that the Jews adopted their name from their pagan neighbors; but this section of Genesis informs us that the Name had been known and abused before the Flood even.

I had read your first post, but was unsure what it was you were speaking of, but reading the second post, it certainly does make more sense.

Giuliano 02-09-2014 09:14 AM

Re: Translation Problems?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Soulheart3 (Post 175298)
I had read your first post, but was unsure what it was you were speaking of, but reading the second post, it certainly does make more sense.

Yes, the problem is still there. Why did God tell Moses He was not known by His Name if people before the Flood knew it? I think there must be something mistranslated in the other verse also.

Giuliano 02-10-2014 01:27 PM

Re: Translation Problems?
 
Exodus 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you.

A Jewish version of Exodus I found says the text should read "I will be what I be" -- "Ehyeh asher ehyeh." I suppose it could be either "I am" or "I will be."

A minor point, perhaps, but remember God made some promises to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob which they did live to see kept. Abraham accepted things on faith and believed it would be hundreds of years before things came to pass. Now to the verse in question.

Exodus 6:3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name Jehovah was I not known to them.


I found it can be translated differently.

The passage does not say "my name was not known to them" but rather "I did not become known." Meaning God had made promises to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob but they did not understand since how God would do these things remained unknown to them. Moses however would see what the Name "I Will Be What I Will Be" meant. God would make that known to him.

Soulheart3 02-10-2014 02:25 PM

Re: Translation Problems?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Giuliano (Post 175369)
Exodus 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you.

A Jewish version of Exodus I found says the text should read "I will be what I be" -- "Ehyeh asher ehyeh." I suppose it could be either "I am" or "I will be."

I am guessing that any ambiguity would be held in the first I am and not the second.... as in I am Brad, not Brad that Brad.... so it would be if, I will, probably something like I will be I AM. And to further it, "I will be what I AM, there is no further explanation of a name for Me.", or even "I will be known as I AM."


Quote:

A minor point, perhaps, but remember God made some promises to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob which they did live to see kept. Abraham accepted things on faith and believed it would be hundreds of years before things came to pass. Now to the verse in question.

Exodus 6:3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name Jehovah was I not known to them.


I found it can be translated differently.

The passage does not say "my name was not known to them" but rather "I did not become known." Meaning God had made promises to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob but they did not understand since how God would do these things remained unknown to them. Moses however would see what the Name "I Will Be What I Will Be" meant. God would make that known to him.
I was reading different translations, and even though I don't really care that much for the NLV, it was translated there as...

I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob as El-Shaddai--'God Almighty'--but I did not reveal my name, Yahweh, to them.

And I think this is the more accurate way of stating it.

Giuliano 02-10-2014 03:10 PM

Re: Translation Problems?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Soulheart3 (Post 175371)
I am guessing that any ambiguity would be held in the first I am and not the second.... as in I am Brad, not Brad that Brad.... so it would be if, I will, probably something like I will be I AM. And to further it, "I will be what I AM, there is no further explanation of a name for Me.", or even "I will be known as I AM."

The words are identical.

Quote:

I was reading different translations, and even though I don't really care that much for the NLV, it was translated there as...

I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob as El-Shaddai--'God Almighty'--but I did not reveal my name, Yahweh, to them.

And I think this is the more accurate way of stating it.
They reverse the word order for one thing and appear to ignore the "y" at the end of "shem" which makes it shemiy -- "by name" or "about name." Also if it was a direct object, it should have an "eth" in front of it.

I think Young's Literal has it almost right -- "but by my name Jehovah was I not known to them." The text does not say the name was not known, the verb "known" goes with "I" -- "I was not known."

The NIV does not take into account that people before the flood knew the Name. Abraham knew it too:

Genesis 21:33 And Abraham planted a grove in Beersheba, and called there on the name of the LORD, the everlasting God.

The Jews also say Jethro knew about Jehovah and was His priest, making him unpopular among his fellow Midianites. I don't know if that can be found in the Bible.

Edit to add these passages which I found.

Genesis 22:14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen.

26:22 And he removed from thence, and digged another well; and for that they strove not: and he called the name of it Rehoboth; and he said, For now the LORD hath made room for us, and we shall be fruitful in the land.

26:25 And he builded an altar there, and called upon the name of the LORD, and pitched his tent there: and there Isaac's servants digged a well.

29:32 And Leah conceived, and bare a son, and she called his name Reuben: for she said, Surely the LORD hath looked upon my affliction; now therefore my husband will love me.

29:33 And she conceived again, and bare a son; and said, Because the LORD hath heard that I was hated, he hath therefore given me this son also: and she called his name Simeon.

29:35 And she conceived again, and bare a son: and she said, Now will I praise the LORD: therefore she called his name Judah; and left bearing.

30:24 And she called his name Joseph; and said, The LORD shall add to me another son.

Soulheart3 02-10-2014 06:05 PM

Re: Translation Problems?
 
Well you know a lot more of other languages than I. Perhaps you are right!

Giuliano 02-10-2014 06:33 PM

Re: Translation Problems?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Soulheart3 (Post 175389)
Well you know a lot more of other languages than I. Perhaps you are right!

I had to look that stuff up.

Soulheart3 02-10-2014 07:44 PM

Re: Translation Problems?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Giuliano (Post 175392)
I had to look that stuff up.

I mean I am bad with languages in general... even English, my parent language. I have to usually read things about 4 times or more, then think about it to understand And I have weak eyes. And I just cant put in the time I used to be able to, to search things out, without my eyes hurting and tearing so much that I cant drive or work. I have had to learn to trust the Holy Spirit more so, but that's not really so bad.


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